Essential Zen

I've been mulling this over since I read it this morning, and I continue to have a problem with it, and perhaps it is purely personal, my own predilection, or perhaps even a reflexive behavior. However, whenever I encounter the words "should" or "ought to", I balk. Likewise, when it is suggested spiritual advancement is a group effort, I balk. (I was not good at team sports.)

I suppose the reason I'm attracted to Zen is for similar reasons. For example:

To begin to understand you must cut off knowing and seeing, forget gain and loss, and become purified, naked, and perfectly at ease; each and every one must investigate on his own.

I'm not saying this is true for everyone, only that my own way differs from Rose's which may be quite valid for others, especially those inclined to teach.

~

Interesting post, Aff. I now see why I was never directed to read Rose's work. More spiritual mumbo-jumbo. (My personal opinion, of course.)

You quote:

"Another law should be observed concurrently with the Law of Proportional Returns. It is the Law of the Ladder. The ladder is here used as a symbol to show that there should be a selective giving of goods, energy, or spiritual help. The Law of the Ladder simply says that you should not reach below the rung upon which you stand, except to the first rung below you - in order to help people. If you reach down too low, your efforts will be wasted, and you may be hurt. Or crucified.

The Law of the Ladder also says that you connot be helped by anyone too far above you, because you are not prepared to work with that person on the same level at which he is working."

This sounds nice in theory to our reason. Once one has awakened at least in the Dream, it's all out the window.

My take is similiar to Jeds. You're either asleep in the Dream, awake in the Dream, or have left the Dream.

This may also sound like a three rung ladder, but it's not. It's based on awareness and perception, and again, from the side of reason it of course sounds reasonable, but once you're on the other side of the fence, it just doesn't fly. All those that think they are either a rung up or a rung down are really all in the same place, asleep, bumping into each other as they stumble along.

"The Law of the Ladder." Chuckles. Duality at it's finest; comments like this are just another sleeping pill to keep you fast, fast asleep with your little binky in your mouth

You also quote:

"The Law of Extra-Proportional Returns can be effected only with the cooperation of friends. The Law of Proportional Returns tells us that we can count the number of yards that a gallon of gas will take a truck. It adds, that if we put two gallons in, we can expect only to go twice as far. The Law of Extra-Proportional Returns implies an unexpected increment. To draw an analogy, two factors (human) will accomplish more results together, than will either of the two factors in twice as much time.

This is also known as the Contractor's Law. If this law did not exist, no contractor would hire men. The work would all be done by individuals working alone. It was only when Henry Ford progressed to the assembly line production that he really started making money.

Th e principle works in somewhat the following manner. One man can build a certain type of house in ninety days. Two men working together will be able to build it in forty-two or forty-three days. And five men, each specializing in a particular trade, may buld it in fifteen days, or seventy-five man-days. And with more men, the work will be closer to perfection.

We apply the same principle to spiritual work."

Let me interrupt here for a moment....

Above he says: "We apply the same principle to spiritual work."

Ok, so if this were true, why isn't there more awake people in the Dream or Enlightened people out of the Dream? You see, it's not true. What's the percentage of enlightened one's that come from any guru? (Assuming your preferred Guru IS enlightened himself.) Almost ziltch. I mean, there's more self proclaimed Guru's and followers than ever before, right? Why are none of the enlightened? Again, assume one IS enlightened. Why doesn't s/he have a following of enlightened followers? Or, maybe just a couple? Cuz the contractors law is pure bunk in working on self. "I-AM" is all that "There Is." It's more fun to listen to your guru than slice away your false self.

Again, these words are coming from someone who seems to maybe have just a glimpse of being awakened in the Dream, certainly not enlightened, and certainly not even abiding in being awake in the Dream.

To finish your quotes: (or just a part of them, cuz the rest are making me ill.)

"Gurdjieff called it the school. It is very difficult for a man to work alone. He tends to drift. If he does not drift, he may slip off on a tangent, become hallucinated, self-hypnotized, or plainly obsessed. He needs a mirror to watch for his own possible deviations, and he finds such a mirror in the minds of his colleagues, if nothing else. And when he realizes the value of cooperation, the only sensible thing to do is to form a pattern for cooperation, which pattern should allow for new brothers on the path."

Refresh my memory of how many students of Gurjieff were enlightened? Would anyone say Gurjieff was Enlightened? Oh, everyone loves his stuff. Loves his words, loves his neato little things he did with the students, etc., etc. Again, everyone's lost in the teaching and forgot what the teacher and teaching was there for: not to revel in the exercise but to slice away the self.

As to the rest of the 'group theory,' I see it just the opposite. We must work alone to hold our own unbending intent on OURSELVES. If anyone else is involved, everything becomes "out," not "in." If one chooses a Teacher or whatever one wishes to label them, the teaching must be taken by student to kill themselves. The problem with this is that 99% of anyone with a teacher gets lost in the teachings and forgets WHY the teachings are present: To kill the self. One must be beaten down, battered and bruised, no hope left, until one surrenders. Once one surrenders, the false self retreats, there's no seperation between "I" and anything else.

A couple of final comments....

Aff, I really suggest you use the rest of whatever this is you are reading to wipe your ass, and be done with it. Pick up Jed's third book, "Spiritual Warefare," and read it. It's all there, very clearly.

You also mentioned in chat a couple of weeks ago that you wanted to start up a discussion board, and I'm paraphrasing you now, but, something along the lines of a 'serious discussion group.'

If you want to discuss seriously, can't you do it here? How do you know who's serious and who's not? Do you want to be a Della van Hise or Michael Maher or countless other self proclaimed whatevers? How far has their groups gotten them OR their followers??

Watching them reminds me of a perfect example: our boys. You know how boys love to play with guns, act out war and such? This is the same thing as discussion groups. Fake bullets, fake war. (At least our boys are still children, knowing they are acting, not adults with the spiritual maturity of children.) As one who has been in war, it's always interesting to watch. This is how it is once you awaken at least within the Dream. You sit up like Neo, looking around at all those asleep.

The tools are all here, my friend. Recapitulation, Spiritual Autolysis. Take it inward, not outward. If you wish to ride a belief system to your final demise such as Toltec or Buddhist or whatever, keep this in mind: Take what's given and kill yourself. Take the basics and kill yourself, not the fancy sounding bullshit. Don't get caught in the bullshit, the teaching, for teachings sake. What do you really want? To spout cool stuff to 'those on the rung below you,' or to awaken?

What are you going to do??

kris

So if working solo is so important then way do we have this group?

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate your responses. I’ve read all of Jed’s books… I followed them up by reading Richard Rose’s work The Albigen Papers because there seemed to be many similarities between the two writers, so much that it seemed likely that Jed may have studied with Rose or was inspired by his methods. Having now finished reading both author’s works, it still seems to me that Jed was possibly inspired by Rose’s approach. Particularly, stepping away from untruth to move closer to truth, methods of self inquire, taking the first step, and all the rest of it.

What I don’t like about Rose is his erudite way of communicating his thoughts on spiritual matters while Jed on the other hand has a very direct and common way of expressing the process of awakening and the characteristics of being awake.

My take on all this is simple... There is no point. There’s no point to Zazen, there’s no point to Yoga, there’s no point to participating in a Self-Inquire Discussion Groups. There is no seeking enlightenment.

Since I’m not seeking the enlightenment objective I will hang out in this group with you hypocrites.

Affinity wrote:So if working solo is so important then way do we have this group?

Two different issues you mention here, at least to me.

Working solo is working solo. This group is for discussion on whatever it is one wants to discuss. Prob comes in, we take the discussion group for the 'work,' when it's not. We take one for the other. I discuss, I chat with you and Gonz and Maive, do a lot of things. I don't mistake it for 'the work' though.

Of course there's the theory that it's ALL "The Work." This could well be, yet if this were the case, would there (once again) be more folks further along? Obviously not. There needs to be some intense focus. I'm sure it's a bit of both, but what do I know??

Affinity wrote:Since I’m not seeking the enlightenment objective I will hang out in this group with you hypocrites.

Awwww..............

Thanks Zam, that's been my take on things from the get go... that is to say that there is a distinction between solo work and group discussion. I didn't really understand why there was such distain for the idea of participating in a Self-Inquire Discussion Group. Maybe it's the official sounding name of the thing after all or perhaps just the rush to judgment. I just took for granted that the conclusion wouldn't be drawn that talking about self inquire could take the place of actually doing the self inquiring.

As for my use of the word “hypocrites”. That was discussion, and not actual work.

Since I’m not seeking the enlightenment objective I will hang out in this group with you hypocrites.

So that's the work??? Judgment of others? That's not work that I would like to do, actually I endeavor to NOT do that. But we are here now.
Is your discussion group and the fact that it was strongly suggested that you NOT undertake it the issue here? Having a spoiled brat fit because we didn't agree that this would be a good thing is not the way to meditate on the reasons why it MAY not be a good idea. Many of us, myself included have been a part of these things and I for one have never seen it work. Actually I have NEVER seen a group of "spiritual beings" get together without some drama. So whatever Gee wearing, tea sipping, peace, love, supportive, warm fuzzy fantasy you got goin on in ur melon needs to be dispelled. I have found that pretty much everyone that gets involved in this spiritual business start out pretty fucked up and broken...some move beyond that, many don't. That was the reason for the poo pooing of your idea. If you need support in this time of your life, I recommend counseling...it worked for me.

I can't take you seriously enough to construct a step by step reply for you. But since you're so keen on seeking my judgment... You may want to take that tinny aperture of perception you righteously touting as intuitiveness into this topic and what you think is going on here and do some much needed self observation.

I really do love it when Im right...how very non-spiritual of me

You debase even self-delusion.

Actually I should give you some credit. When I do participate in a discussion group I'll be sure to call everyone who walks in the door a hypocrite right off the bat. It'll help to weed out the dumbasses a few too many rungs down the ladder. Abracadabra!

You debase even self-delusion.

HA! How long did that take you to think up? Thats quite literate actually! And thank GOD, I need to debase something soon or Im gonna pop!

Please keep the insults on topic, and don't continue to try to defuse the situation by insulting yourself. Thank you!

Oh sorry, sorry, how is this? You can take your erudite ladder and jam it straight up your ass?

She Blinded We With Science!

Hi Aff,.................do,nt know, what, to make of, your "Law of the Ladder" post.

Firstly, I do,nt like it, any more than, the others, do.
"Rules" do nothing for me,...........I do what I like, and therefore, resent any "laying down of the Law", regardless of who, is doing it. Especially so, in "spiritual" matters.
Seems like, a load of old wank, to me,( forgive my French,).

Btw, .....Zam's response, appears to be, another variant of "laying down the Law",...........maybe, we have the makings of a deathmatch!

Oddly enough, though,.....on reviewing my own life experience, I can only observe that, the general principle of "the Ladder", does, appear to be, true, though, I wwould,nt assume that, it,s part of any cosmic plan. Odd, eh?

Do,nt know what, that means, other than, I'm an asshole, but, that,s hardly news!