Forget It

[Kristopher]

~

Chop wood?

Carry water?

Forget it!

There is no 'before' enlightenment.

There is no 'after' enlightenment.

There is no enlightenment 'other' than this moment.

The light by which you see is it. THIS presence.

All there is, is THIS - this immediate knowing - right now.

It is direct cognition. Pure Knowing.

There is no such thing as indirect cognition so it is All That.

Knowing is all that is happening. Everything else is appearing in that Knowing.

You can call it enlightenment if you wish, yet it will make no difference whatsoever.

You ARE this knowing presence - That is all.

[Red Heart]

so are you trying to say we are already enlightened, and we should just accept it and move on?
Brilliant!

[Kristopher]

so are you trying to say we are already enlightened, and we should just accept it and move on?
Brilliant!

We, kimosabi?

I only grant the Old Barbarian knows; I don't allow that he understands.

[Gonzo]

~

Chop wood?

Carry water?

Forget it!

There is no 'before' enlightenment.

There is no 'after' enlightenment.

There is no enlightenment 'other' than this moment.

The light by which you see is it. THIS presence.

All there is, is THIS - this immediate knowing - right now.

It is direct cognition. Pure Knowing.

There is no such thing as indirect cognition so it is All That.

Knowing is all that is happening. Everything else is appearing in that Knowing.

You can call it enlightenment if you wish, yet it will make no difference whatsoever.

You ARE this knowing presence - That is all.

Perhaps a misinterpretation...chop wood and carry water is the essence of being IN this moment. That is immediate knowing, paying attention to the act, being in the moment, one with the chopping and carrying.

[Kristopher]

~

Chop wood?

Carry water?

Forget it!

There is no 'before' enlightenment.

There is no 'after' enlightenment.

There is no enlightenment 'other' than this moment.

The light by which you see is it. THIS presence.

All there is, is THIS - this immediate knowing - right now.

It is direct cognition. Pure Knowing.

There is no such thing as indirect cognition so it is All That.

Knowing is all that is happening. Everything else is appearing in that Knowing.

You can call it enlightenment if you wish, yet it will make no difference whatsoever.

You ARE this knowing presence - That is all.

Chop wood and carry water is the essence of being IN this moment.

Is it? To go 'further' with this, I'll ask you to read the initial comments again very closely, word by word. Then, put it all together.

[Mornings Sun]

~

Chop wood?

Carry water?

Forget it!

There is no 'before' enlightenment.

There is no 'after' enlightenment.

There is no enlightenment 'other' than this moment.

*Putting and end to you typing (as in this post - this moment) *

What now??

[Gonzo]

Chop wood and carry water is the essence of being IN this moment.

Is it? To go 'further' with this, I'll ask you to read the initial comments again very closely, word by word. Then, put it all together.

Going further is leaving this moment.

[Kristopher]

Chop wood and carry water is the essence of being IN this moment.

Is it? To go 'further' with this, I'll ask you to read the initial comments again very closely, word by word. Then, put it all together.

Going further is leaving this moment.

Allow me to use your own words, "Perhaps a misinterpretation..."

Further, deeper into the now one is not 'going' anywhere.

I do apologize for muddling you up.

[Gonzo]

Going further is leaving this moment.

Allow me to use your own words, "Perhaps a misinterpretation..."

Further, deeper into the now one is not 'going' anywhere.

I do apologize for muddling you up.

Apology accepted. Going, is still going, and you DID say going, which is now changed to "...deeper into the now", which seems to imply the now has levels.

For the sake of discussion, let's say the now does have levels and if one persists, is "impeccable", etc, one may access those "deeper" levels, perhaps even to the point of perceiving raw energy, the stuff, we are told, of which all is made. What then? Of what possible use is that perception or understanding?

I submit we still come back to fetch firewood and carry water, and nothing has changed.

[Red Heart]

I submit that when one finds those deeper levels of understanding one achieves spiritual creaminess...without being high centered on the chewy chunks of degredation...but I could be wrong.

[serendipity]

Hi G, and Co.,.....,

"Of what possible use is that perception or understanding?"

To view knowledge in terms of practical gains, is to look through the eyes of the merchant.

"A warrior risks everything, on an adventure without end",......or, so I'm told.

I note that, you always mention, the inevitability of returning to the everyday world.
I recall that, not returning to this world, was definitely one of the options on offer on "The Sorcerer's Path". This option could be viewed as an escape from imprisonment, by some.

I also, note that, you say, "nothing has changed".
Obviously, this cannot be a factual statement, as change is the one constant in life.
To maintain that one is left unchanged by experiences gained outwith normal perception, merely illustrates that, the speaker has limited experience of such altered states.

Perhaps, you might be willing to consider the idea that, your attitude towards the question of "whats the point", where such "journeyings" are concerned, is more influenced by your personal dislike of chaos and disorder, than by any lack of value in the experiences themselves?
After all, whether such experiences are accessed through the use of psychoactive substances, or, by natural or spontaneous means, they are usually pretty disruptive. So much so, that "psychedelics" are not popular amongst the masses, despite widespread availability, whereas alcohol is guzzled by the ocean-load. ( Mr. Bud,).
How many of you have dared to delve deeper into Sally-D, for instance?
I would like to suggest that, it is unwise to write a travel guide, if you have'nt spent quite a bit of time in the location concerned.

BTW,....do you think, when one is totally under the influence of a psychoactive substance, and one's attention is completely absorbed by the experience, one could be said to be "not in the moment", etc?

[Gonzo]

Hi G, and Co.,.....,

"Of what possible use is that perception or understanding?"

To view knowledge in terms of practical gains, is to look through the eyes of the merchant.

Then of what use is knowledge? Isn't the ultimate purpose to understand? If that is achieved, it's priceless and of no use to a merchant. Further, the question never got answered...of what use are they?

"A warrior risks everything, on an adventure without end",......or, so I'm told.

I note that, you always mention, the inevitability of returning to the everyday world.
I recall that, not returning to this world, was definitely one of the options on offer on "The Sorcerer's Path". This option could be viewed as an escape from imprisonment, by some.

Not returning to this world is usually considered death, and is always an option. The point I've tried to make is that in my opinion we are here, in this world, at this level of awareness and consciousness for a purpose. The purpose is to experience the mud, the blood, and the beer: the ordinary. However, forays into other realms have the possibility of modifying or clarifying perception upon return.

I also, note that, you say, "nothing has changed".
Obviously, this cannot be a factual statement, as change is the one constant in life.
To maintain that one is left unchanged by experiences gained outwith normal perception, merely illustrates that, the speaker has limited experience of such altered states.

To clarify, in my opinion, the true essence doesn't change; what changes is misperception of self by self, as well as misperceptions of others. Experiences in altered states may certainly have impact in this regard.

Perhaps, you might be willing to consider the idea that, your attitude towards the question of "whats the point", where such "journeyings" are concerned, is more influenced by your personal dislike of chaos and disorder, than by any lack of value in the experiences themselves?

I have greatly valued many altered experiences and learned things from them I suspect I could not have learned any other way. However, as you point out, my dislike of chaos and disorder has steered me away from those entheogens which produce chaos and disorder. It's quite possible there are profound things learned from them, however, I remain unwilling, at this point, to explore them.

After all, whether such experiences are accessed through the use of psychoactive substances, or, by natural or spontaneous means, they are usually pretty disruptive. So much so, that "psychedelics" are not popular amongst the masses, despite widespread availability, whereas alcohol is guzzled by the ocean-load. ( Mr. Bud,).

Heh. In my opinion the vast quantity of psychoactive substances as well as alcohol are consumed for recreational purposes, so of course disruptive ones are avoided. Those who use them for spiritual reasons are quite the minority. The only ones I have found to be disruptive were LSD and Salvia. My jury remains out on Sally.

How many of you have dared to delve deeper into Sally-D, for instance?
I would like to suggest that, it is unwise to write a travel guide, if you haven't spent quite a bit of time in the location concerned.

BTW,....do you think, when one is totally under the influence of a psychoactive substance, and one's attention is completely absorbed by the experience, one could be said to be "not in the moment", etc?

Of course. My one "trip" with Sally, as I'm sure you're aware, essentially destroyed the moment.

[Kristopher]

For the sake of discussion, let's say the now does have levels and if one persists, is "impeccable", etc, one may access those "deeper" levels, perhaps even to the point of perceiving raw energy, the stuff, we are told, of which all is made. What then? Of what possible use is that perception or understanding?

I've many (new) irons in the fire right now, I'll have to get back to you.

[serendipity]

Get this,.... the software on this forum is a load of old wank!

I just wrote a very lengthy reply to you, Gonzo, yet, when I tried to post it, I was directed back to the login page, which I had already filled out, and then, back to the reply page, minus my very lengthy reply!

How encouraging for those who wish to post here?!

Not.

I wo,nt be wasting my time posting here again, unless this problem is addressed, as copying is done by machines, thesedays, and not short-sighted monks with a year to spare on one communication.
No doubt, the entire forum will breathe a huge sigh of relief!

[serendipity]

How nice!

Your software decided to let me post that last one, as it contained nothing worth reading.

No doubt, the previous attempt was little different, but I'd rather others check that for themselves, rather than having to try to sneak past an auto-censor.