Essential Zen

what is the goal here in this path? what is the vision beyond the goal? when you escape the cycle what is there next? i have studied for a long time the path of Budhism and many others, yet i fail to see the reasonings to this logic. i have progressed beyond death, thru death to the retension of life beyond incarnation. yet i have still managed to retain even the useful nature of death, as escape, and as transcendence beyond life's parameters or values. i see it as a waiting, patiently for the knowledge needed to align to the goal, as a hunter in search of a specially intended knowledge, or insight. i have learnt that the dreamer can dream or fashion in this way his own knowledge, his own way. to escape the cycle of rebirth is strange to me, perhaps because i have not learned the reasons behind this path. i have learned the awareness of satisfaction, contentment and ease, beyond material gains and physicality, and this seems in contrast with the goal of breaking the cycle. why is one unsatisfied with the knowledge of death and rebirth. in the warrior's path one is made to see that death exists because the warrior intends it and the warrior is made to befriend Death as an advisor and further along as an ally, even a value. does this knowledge not in itslef break the cycle of rebirth?

Derek wrote:what is the goal here in this path?

I asked my ally at the time that question. The reply was, "Have a good time and enjoy yourself." That's similar to the Dalai Lama's rather simplistic statement that the purpose of life is to be happy. In my opinion, the goal, this time around (assuming more manifestations to follow) is to work towards the type of unconcern described in this post: http://yetanotherway.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=655&p=5628&hilit=unconcern#p5628

Derek wrote:what is the vision beyond the goal?

perhaps, whatever can be imagined.

Derek wrote: when you escape the cycle what is there next?

Theories abound...I prefer what Robert Monroe had to say about it, and perhaps the Tibetan Buddhists notions of the bardos, and the seven levels of being.

Derek wrote:i have studied for a long time the path of Budhism and many others, yet i fail to see the reasonings to this logic. i have progressed beyond death, thru death to the retension of life beyond incarnation. yet i have still managed to retain even the useful nature of death, as escape, and as transcendence beyond life's parameters or values. i see it as a waiting, patiently for the knowledge needed to align to the goal, as a hunter in search of a specially intended knowledge, or insight. i have learnt that the dreamer can dream or fashion in this way his own knowledge, his own way. to escape the cycle of rebirth is strange to me, perhaps because i have not learned the reasons behind this path. i have learned the awareness of satisfaction, contentment and ease, beyond material gains and physicality, and this seems in contrast with the goal of breaking the cycle.

I once defined enlightenment as "genuine contentment".

Derek wrote: why is one unsatisfied with the knowledge of death and rebirth.

Damned if I know. What comes to mind here is the old comment about Bodhidharma, that, "I only grant that he knows; I don't allow that he understands."

Derek wrote: in the warrior's path one is made to see that death exists because the warrior intends it and the warrior is made to befriend Death as an advisor and further along as an ally, even a value. does this knowledge not in itslef break the cycle of rebirth?

I don't think it does. In this regard, I prefer a theory (not unique to the book) put forward in "Messages from Michael", which, briefly, describes various soul levels, from Infant Soul to Old Soul. Once you've learned all you came here to learn, you exit the wheel of death and rebirth.

I wanted to add something to the mixture.

As far as I know there is no escape. Sorry to break it to you folks.

There is a wheel... and the wheel spins... there is no stopping to it. You can be running inside like a hamster, rolling within it bumping your face and body endlessly or you can do the buddha's choice:

Get on top of it and ride it like a boss!

"As far as I know there is no escape. Sorry to break it to you folks.

There is a wheel... and the wheel spins... there is no stopping to it. You can be running inside like a hamster, rolling within it bumping your face and body endlessly or you can do the buddha's choice:

Get on top of it and ride it like a boss!"

said it very well- in short!

If there is no escape, what do you all feel about the Rainbow Body that some Yogis are documented to have attained?

Kathok Monastery in eastern Kham in Sichuan Province, China, has records indicating that over 100,000 within the Kathok lineage achieved this state since its founding in the 12th century while nearby Dzogchen Monastery had 60,000 lineage holders reach such a state since the monastery was established in the 17th century. Both monasteries are of the Nyingma Sect. The Fourth Dodrupchen Rinpoche, an incarnation of Guru Padmasambhava, holds the highest lineage of the Great Perfection Rainbow Body dharma today within the Nyingma Sect. With this dharma it is posible for a person to transform his or her body into rainbow light

http://www.zhaxizhuoma.net/SEVEN_JEWELS/HOLY%20EVENTS/RAINBOW%20BODY/RBindex.html

what do you think about it in the subject of life and death?

soulflower wrote:If there is no escape, what do you all feel about the Rainbow Body that some Yogis are documented to have attained?

Kathok Monastery in eastern Kham in Sichuan Province, China, has records indicating that over 100,000 within the Kathok lineage achieved this state since its founding in the 12th century while nearby Dzogchen Monastery had 60,000 lineage holders reach such a state since the monastery was established in the 17th century. Both monasteries are of the Nyingma Sect. The Fourth Dodrupchen Rinpoche, an incarnation of Guru Padmasambhava, holds the highest lineage of the Great Perfection Rainbow Body dharma today within the Nyingma Sect. With this dharma it is posible for a person to transform his or her body into rainbow light

http://www.zhaxizhuoma.net/SEVEN_JEWELS/HOLY%20EVENTS/RAINBOW%20BODY/RBindex.html

While I believe those claims are very exagerated (and I'm not going to get into that) being enlightened doesn't mean you stop taking births so in fact you escape nothing, except the painful part of the cycle.

Being on top of the wheel doesn't mean you are beyond it. You are simply in full control of it, being able to redirect it even, but you are not out. Please understand that I'm not talking against enlightenment (not at all) but against the silly notion that once you are enlightened karma doesn't apply to you any more and you are some sort of living deity beyond the... how to put it... ups and downs of the universe.

You feel deeply free and elated, suffering is reduced to the absolute minimum and you have some potentials that would look to the average unevolved soul as miraculous, but that's about it.

what catches me is the description Carlos gave.. a definitive journey. now a long time ago a path was outlined to me, and many aspects of the path defined. i have went down these roads to experrience the exact path i had intended to see. later on i realised this, that a path or a position of awareness may be defined, imagined, ultimately created by a single living being. surely we use the totality of our knowledge to generate or project the world we live in, the life we live, the position of awareness we carry. i learnt from gazing the 'Eagle' or having near death experiecnes that indeed everythign and anything is attainable, so there is no way in hell i can say that escaping a simple perception of a cycle of rebirth is impossible. this is knowledge and power always finds a way. knowledge is changeable just as a not-doing becomes a doing. these doings are what make up a position of dreaming, the knowledge one has, and thusly if the knowledge one has says you can't than i suggest standing on your head and finding some new knowledge.

i appreciate the responses generated, and the main question i wondered is the why. the path of a warrior defines a nice way of retaining awareness through death. i have learnt that death itself is a descriptive process that if agreed to and intended becomes fact. now perhaps i am a little to wound up in the old death defiers way of knowledge of escaping death, perhaps not, who cares, and why? i don't want to go and place traditions in boxes, nor judge the inhabitants of a path or paradigm, because believe me i know i would merely reap those judgements in my daily dream. the truth is i am no better than another, and i realise both the unity in dreaming, and (beware cliff jumpers) the seperation.

escape the cycle of rebirth? no thanks, and who the hell ever said i was trapped in one? THAT is the real question. no you have your pizza and i have mine, i'll make mine the way i wanna. (walks away singing 'when the moon hits your eye.."