Musings from chat

[Gonzo]

oxymoron - a figure of speech that combines contradictory terms.

I enjoyed Jed McKenna's books, but as with Castaneda, I believe "the message" may have been subverted. In the case of Castaneda attention is drawn to wondrous powers, sorcery, magic, and even an excuse to indulge in entheogens. In the case of McKenna, we are led to see enlightenment defined as being an abiding non-dual awareness, which, I submit, is an oxymoron.

In both sets of books, and indeed in every spiritual philosophy I've encountered, the true goal is as defined in CC's books – to achieve the totality of self. In process of accomplishing that, even similar techniques are provided – CC has recapitulation – McKenna supplies spiritual autolysis – Zen, meditation – Christianity, prayer. Tales of power are basically carrots on a stick.

[Affinity]

...and I think a key element in reaching the "totality of self" is honesty.

[Kristopher]

~

"I enjoyed Jed McKenna's books, but as with Castaneda, I believe "the message" may have been subverted."

Sure. The finger pointing at the finger point at the moon. How else can Truth be pinpointed in the dualistic dreamstate?

"In the case of Castaneda attention is drawn to wondrous powers, sorcery, magic, and even an excuse to indulge in entheogens."

What's the underlying point in all of this?

"In the case of McKenna, we are led to see enlightenment defined as being an abiding non-dual awareness, which, I submit, is an oxymoron."

You mention, "I submit," which is the key. The first line also mentions, "contradictory terms." So? As a Zen man yourself, you should be used to this by now, as Zen writing is full of contradiction. What does this show your "I"?

"In both sets of books, and indeed in every spiritual philosophy I've encountered, the true goal is as defined in CC's books – to achieve the totality of self."

Ok, once again, the finger pointing at the finger pointing at the moon. What is 'totality of self' to 'you?' 'Achieve' is a very loaded word as well. 'Who' is achieving? 'What' is being achieved? 'Where' is achieving, occuring? 'When' is achievement going to be happening, has it already happened, or is it in the 'future'? (Memory is perception imagined in the past, consciousness is perception experienced in the present, and imagination is perception projected into the future?) 'Why' is achievement necessary? Is it necessary? For 'whom' is it necessary? 'How' is totality of 'self' achieved?

"In process of accomplishing that...."

Please share your process of accomplishing 'that.'

"...even similar techniques are provided – CC has recapitulation – McKenna supplies spiritual autolysis – Zen, meditation – Christianity, prayer. Tales of power are basically carrots on a stick."

In another light one may see, 'similiar techniques provided' as the process, 'tales of power' the result of the process, although they may all be 'tales of power.'

'Carrots on a stick' may also imply 'hope' to 'achieve' a 'goal.' Dual. Artificial seperation. Non dual awareness isn't bound by this duality, thus, there's no contradiction to be 'had' or be concerned over.

What's the real point of this comment from 'you'? Lack of understanding? Contradiction? Frustration? Dissapointment?

If this topic of chat doesn't tickle your fancy, what would you like to discuss? Perhaps it's not the topic or the discussion, but the awareness and perception of 'you,' the perceiver/receiver?

'Musings from chat' are fine. Are your comments above all you wish to share?

[Gonzo]

It's really not possible to continue a discussion on the topic since there remains a disagreement over perspective. I cannot answer the questions if I assume there is no “I”.

[Gonzo]

Gonzolo shared this little gem yesterday - I found a copy on the net.

I knew Bodhidharma* personally. I traveled with the man for at least three months. He loved me just as I loved him. You will be curious to know why he loved me. He loved me because I never asked him any question. He said to me, "You are the first person I have met who does not ask a question—and I only get bored with all the questions. You are the only person who does not bore me."

I said, "There is a reason."

He said, "What is that?"

I said, "I only answer. I never question. If you have any question you can ask me. If you don't have a question then keep your mouth shut."

We both laughed, because we both belonged to the same category of insanity. He asked me to continue the journey with him, but I said, "Excuse me, I have to go my own way, and from this point it separates from yours."

He could not believe it. He had never invited anyone before. This was the man who had even refused Emperor Wu—the greatest emperor of those days, with the greatest empire—as if he was a beggar. Bodhidharma could not believe his eyes, that I could refuse him.

I said, "Now you know how it feels to be refused. I wanted to give you a taste of it. Goodbye."

[Gonzo]

Hot topic yesterday was child abuse, specifically, sexual child abuse. No one seemed able to arrive at a conclusive definition, yet all seemed to agree any sexual activity by an adult with a child constituted abuse. Being somewhat of a Devil's Advocate, I suggested otherwise, that in some cases that could be considered an expression of affection. For some reason, in this country, (to me the most infantile in the world when it comes to sex), this topic is met with a great amount of heat. (See current vilification of Sandusky.) The only other topic receiving such heat is male homosexuality, but that's another issue.

The unsubstantiated claim is that sex with a child permanently scars him emotionally and psychologically. My response to that is "Bullshit". If the worst thing that ever happens to a person is to have a penis up their butt, they've led an extraordinarily easy life.

[Gonzo]

Another interesting topic was that of "loosh", mentioned by Further at his forum in the dreaming folder. I found this definition at another forum which provides the original definition provided by Robert Monroe.

Just a clarification about that, though. A common misconception about this Loosh harvesting often arises from people only telling one side of that story. Whereas Monroe initially fell into a rather severe depression when he discovered this system, he later was shown exactly how this Loosh energy was being utilized. I'm going to give a quick review of it because it is definitely worthy of consideration. Bear in mind though that, as Bob himself was told, it is hard to put universal processes into a perspective that can be unequivocally understood by our human minds.

Earth, it would appear, was the creation of a "Someone" coming from "Somewhere" for the purposes of cultivating this Loosh harvest. Apparently, Loosh is of great value in Somewhere, but is relatively scarce and hard to find. This Someone coming from Somewhere was the being/entity/intelligence that created the Earth Life System that we see in effect upon this planet today. In the course of experimentation, it was discovered that Loosh was emitted in a very unrefined state as a natural by-product of the carbon/oxygen life cycle taking place on Earth.

In the earliest stages -- what we know of as single-celled aquatic lifeforms -- this unrefined Loosh could only be harvested in small quantities at the exact moment of death. Later experimentation brought about plants which were higher-order Loosh producers than the unicellular initial lifeforms; even later experiments yielded larger mobile animals that emitted better quality (though still unrefined) Loosh. The best quality Loosh was eventually found to be produced during the struggle-for-survival conflicts that took place between the smaller, less well-armed mobiles (that consumed the plants) and the bigger, stronger predators (that consumed the smaller mobiles). These were what we now call the dinosaurs.

Although these mobiles produced much better quality Loosh, they were found to be too large and too long in lifespan to be practical in the long term. In one single motion, Someone terminated the life spans of these creatures (i.e. the extinction of the dinosaurs event), and quickly replaced them with smaller and faster mobile units which resulted in even higher Loosh output.

As a side experiment, Someone also created a very different form of mobile -- humans. Although comparatively weak and ineffective, this variety of mobile could take energy from both plants and animals. Also, Someone pulled forth a Piece of Himself to act as a very unique catalyst. This new mobile would be subjected to a strong need for constant mobility, always seeking reunion with the Whole (in Somewhere) from which Someone came.

Although it came as a great surprise to Someone, it was from this side experiment that pure and distilled Loosh was found to be automatically created. It was generated when those units were in conflict with other units to protect their young offspring, and also generated in large amounts when they felt lonely. When one of these lonely units sensed the presence of Someone, it began to cry and generated large amounts of very high-order Loosh energy.

Someone then included this fundamental baseline in his formula: "The creation of pure, distilled Loosh is brought forth in humans by the action of unfulfillment, but only if such pattern is enacted at a vibratory level above the sensory bounds of the environment. The greater the intensity of said pattern, the greater the output of Loosh distillate."

This feeling of loneliness was also magnified by splitting all mobiles into two genders, ever seeking reunion with each other. The most common "tools" to promote production of Loosh are things like love, friendship, family, greed, hate, pain, guilt, disease, pride, ambition, ownership, possession, sacrifice -- and on a larger scale, nations, provincialism, wars, famine, religion, machines, freedom, industry, trade, etc. Given this, it should be apparent that Loosh production today would be at an all-time high.

So, all of this carries the implication that the primary function of life here -- and especially of human life -- is to learn to be a very high-quality Loosh producer. This energy which we radiate has a very important function in various other levels of creation. My point in all of this is to attempt to make clear that this harvesting or farming is not a "negative" thing that we should rail against. It is in fact, the very purpose of our existence here. Without Someone, Somewhere, the Earth Life System -- and we humans living within it -- would not exist. It also shows that what we view from our perspective as "negative" events, thoughts or emotions are all merely a part of the Loosh spectrum of radiation, and exalting the virtues of the perceived "positive" forms over the "negative" ones is wholly redundant. Suppressing "negative" feelings, as advocated by the "love and light" brigade, actually runs contrary to the design.

Additionally, whilst the concept of Someone from Somewhere would fit very neatly into our human ideals of God and Heaven, Monroe was told that Someone was a creator that was created, and that Somewhere itself is a system that was created. Interesting stuff indeed!

Thanks for listening smile

[Kristopher]

~

Yet another topic from chat are a couple of groups, the Occupy ‘whatever’ movement, and I’ll lump them together with the Anon group.

The following from Uncle Jed relates. The phrase, “you can’t kill an idea” has been mentioned, so if this concerns you, read the following. If you don’t get it, I’ll provide Further explanation at the bottom.

"Well, let's say the worst stuff you can think of really happens," I interrupt, "would that really be such a tragedy?"

The chatter stops as all eyes turn to me.

"Would it really be so bad if your world broke apart at the seams?" I ask. "Cascade failures and anarchy and all that. I could see where it might be a pretty good thing. Shake things up. Get the blood flowing."

They're exchanging glances with each other in smug bemusement; seeking an explanation for, or complicity against, the jackass making this unscheduled deviation from standard themes. [Ala chat.]

"I don't know any of you personally," I continue," but it looks like your lives are fairly predictable. You know how this storyline plays out, right? So what would be so bad if this storyline shifted abruptly to something a little more exciting?"

For better or worse, I have their attention. Henry looks happy.

"I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, thinking out loud. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your lives are pretty much," I make a gesture indicating our current setting, "this, right? I mean, you make money, raise kids, socialize, fulfill your roles, just like everyone else; basically ambling in small circles toward your own graves while pretending you're not.

Sure, you all meditate and do whatever spiritual practices, but you know that's not really going anywhere, right?"

A few pockets of resistance pop up, but I plow over them. Their indignation is as meaningless to me as the growls of little pink puppies. I'm indulging myself with a somewhat more forceful manner of communicating now, mainly for my own amusement, and their reaction at this stage is not a factor.

"This end-of-the-world thing of yours sounds so terrible," I say, "but maybe it would be your one real chance. You might not know it, but what you're fantasizing about is waking up; your own awakening. You've heard the Chinese saying that's both a blessing and a curse; May you live in interesting times. If you look at it, you'll see that we don't live in interesting times, but we could. That's what your terror scenario is really about, isn't it?

The times becoming interesting? We'd have perfect seats for one of the greatest spectacles in the history of the world; the meltdown of an advanced technological civilization. As you've pointed out, it wouldn't take much. Food and water run out in a few days, and all pretense at decency and morality run out with them. Major cities panic and go berserk. Fire, riots, evacuation. It'd be the greatest unmasking the world has ever known. A mass awakening; millions of people getting very real, very fast. You don't think that'd be fun?"

They're looking at me like I'm crazy, stupid, or just unbelievably rude. I'm directing my words mainly to Henry so the others will feel that they're watching a conversation, and not being directly provoked. They see that Henry isn't offended, so they resist the urge to jump in.

"It's not too improbable, I guess. Terror, nuclear mishap, some planetary event, war, a microbe, an act of God. Things change, fall apart, end. No rule against it, right? Imagine America reduced to a land of warlords and city-states; marauding bands of peevish Merlot sniffers roaming the countryside."

Henry laughs and lifts his wine glass.

"Sultry bouquet! Sultry bouquet!" he shouts like a rallying cry. I laugh too. This is fun.

"Any hope of a return to normalcy vanishes. The people we call primitive are unaffected and go on about their lives undisturbed while the entire wired world descends into savagery; not in years or months, but in weeks, days. We'd see how our deeply held values stand up to an empty stomach.

How many meals do you miss before you stop loving thy neighbor and slit his throat? This civilized veneer is really quite thin. Make a study of the human in extreme prison camps, lost at sea and all that – and you'll see it's not just the veneer of civilized behavior that's thin. Friendship, morality, honor, all disappear. Distinguishing physical characteristics disappear. And what about love?

When the going gets tough, we'll steal food from our own starving children. We're wired to survive and love doesn't override wiring." This isn't going over at all well. [Ala chat.] "I don't really mean us, here, sitting at this table," I continue," because this is all a veneer too. [Ala chat.] These cheerful, well-fed personas are just flimsy veils of consciousness laid over the animal within and don't survive even minor discomforts." Everyone's looking down and around, and my sense is that they'd like one among them to stand up and put me in my place." Who we think we are can be stripped away forever," I make a cool gesture, "just like that. Right now, well fed, unthreatened, we have the luxury of pretending the Donners and the Nazis and the gangbangers are someone else, but they're not. They're us; a veil's breadth away. There are no good guys and bad guys. People are people, all the same; only the circumstances change."

I take a breath and let all that sink in. I stand up and start to pace as I resume the diatribe, both for my own energy and so no one mistakes this for a conversation. They are silent now, watching the show. Maybe it's the words or the force behind them, or maybe it's just the spectacle, but they're Al fixed on me.

No swirling and sniffing. No smug, sideward glances. Henry is positively beaming with delight. He got his show.

I grab a carrot stick and take a bite.

"It could be the death-rebirth process, but on a planetary scale. Very interesting to think about. This whole ego-based society burns to the ground. Years of chaos and anarchy follow, but then something rises from the ashes. What? Probably another ego-based society born of might instead of right, of rancid fear, but maybe not. Maybe some-thing else. Heaven on earth, right? Get ourselves back to the garden, don't you think? That's the process the individual has to go through, so why not a society? It's the kind of thing that seems like an unimaginable nightmare before and a Godsend after. The death and rebirth of Western civilization. A human evolution revolution. Pretty cool, huh?"

Henry seems to think so, the others aren't so sure. This hijacking of a conversation and blowing it out is something I can do as easily as popping a balloon. I just take the subject to a more interesting level and show everyone how it looks from there. You'd think people would get offended, but I don't slow down for that and their initial reaction quickly subsides as they see that something different from conversation is happening, and they get on board.

"Am I wrong about anything?" I ask and look at each of them. "This whole breakdown of services and infrastructure is your thing, [Ala chat] I'm just saying it might be a good thing. Amusing. Burn it all," I wave my carrot stick to indicate Western civilization, "I mean, why not? It's not really going anywhere, is it? Another tired storyline. Death and rebirth, right? Is there any other way?"

I look around. No one speaks.

"Now compare that to these bland little lives you're dozing through. What are you really doing? Crawling toward cancer and heart disease and prolonged agonizing deaths. Am I wrong? Oh, one or two of you might get lucky and die in a car accident or have a heart attack in your sleep or be murdered by your spouse, but that's really the best you can hope for. None of you seem self-determined enough for suicide. [Ala chat.] Compare that cheery outlook to this worst-case scenario of yours.

Sure, you probably wouldn't last long, but what a way to go! A world in flames! But you people don't want that because-what? You got something more important going, I guess. Like what? Your plans? Your careers? Your future? Your children?

Your children are just less developed versions of you and their hope of breaking out of the cycle of denial is no better than yours. And even if it were, that's no reason. The only reason is fear. Your fear gives birth to your denial and your cozy, insular delusions of permanence and continuity. Look at yourselves, getting together so you can reaffirm each other's self-image fantasies and tell scary stories about how the big bad wolf could huff and puff and blow your world down. [Ala chat.]

`Wow, we really dodged a bullet there,' you say about this terror thing, but what you dodged was your own lives. Sorry to be such a bore. Got any cake?"

So, what’s the ‘idea’ that can’t be killed? Inward, not outward, individually.

[Gonzo]

I enjoyed this rant by Jed when I read it. For the sheer excitement and drama, nothing would surpass the total disruption of this society. And now with all the major societies of the world totally dependent upon software, they are totally vulnerable via that software. Major systems could be disrupted that would bring this society to a screeching halt. That's what some Tea Party members are quite frightened of by the Occupy movement. I don't believe they understand, however, the true growing power of Anonymous, and none seem at all aware of an extant, viable worldwide botnet called Conficker, nor its capabilities. Ignorance remains bliss. The chaos Jed describes could quite possibly be at hand. But how does that relate to me personally? I believe within a matter of days, perhaps a week or so, were the plug to be pulled and the anarchy and chaos to follow, few over the age of 40 would still be alive. In discussions of this scenario with Kim, in her opinion the only survivors would be the 15 year olds. So the disruption, personally, would merely mean the end of my life.

I realize, however, Jed was speaking allegorically. I encountered a comment by Osho yesterday, something like, there are two ways to achieve the goal – one by reason, one by practice. That suits me just fine. Obviously I have chosen the way of reason, not being inclined towards practice (i.e. meditation, et al), with the exception of incorporating a few things that appealed from a variety of sources. For example, recapitulation (in my own style and to the extent I chose), disruption of routine (nice ideas from don Juan), the ongoing effort towards lucid dreaming, some explorations via entheogens, guidance from a guru. I like to think were chaos and anarchy to occur, I would continue as I do, however, without a daily supply of beer. As noted, I doubt I would live long enough to starve or die of dehydration. The only thing I'm hoarding is shotgun shells.

To respond to the allegory, however, I see no point in disrupting my life as it is, or beyond the disruptions that have already occurred. I did my version of spiritual autolysis...the journal, when tossed, filled a box with notebook paper. I'm done with it. It was not a classic like Moby Dick, but it served the same purpose without the drama.

The disruption of chat would not be what Jed is aiming at. The challenge to the chatters, perhaps, is another matter.

[Gonzo]

~
So, what’s the ‘idea’ that can’t be killed? Inward, not outward, individually.

Enlightenment.

[Affinity]

Found this quote recently and thought it fitting...

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe