Is lucid dreaming of any value?

[Gonzo]

Interesting lucid dream. I was with several other people and somehow realized I was dreaming. So I told them..."Hey! We're dreaming!"...They ignored me and continued talking among themselves. I tried again, and said, "Look at this", and drove my hand through a cushion and into the earth beneath it. I said, "You can't do that in waking reality...therefore we're dreaming." They remained unimpressed. So I said, "Alright...watch this" and floated into the air and did a slow somersault. They continued to ignore me. I drifted away rather disappointed that nobody cared.

I discussed the dream with Kim. She asked what the purpose of lucid dreaming was. That led to a discussion of spiritual evolution...assuming the notion that our purpose is to eventually get off the wheel of death and rebirth, of what use in achieving that goal was lucid dreaming? Indeed...if, as it seemed in my dream, there is little real difference between lucid reality and dreaming reality, what's the point of lucid dreaming? I said, for one, it is at least enjoyable from two standpoints...flying is great fun, and there is superb clarity when lucid, as opposed now to the polluted air we live in. (I can recall from childhood how clear the air was then and remember it vividly.)

Perhaps then it is easy to equate enlightenment with getting off that wheel. What IS enlightenment, then? Still, nobody seems able to provide an adequate definition. I've considered "genuine contentment" to be enlightenment...Kim suggested being free of fretting, which led me to the gem from The Blue Cliff Record, that being an unconcerned man. (If one is truly unconcerned, he will not fret, and will accept fully all that is in any moment, which itself might be considered enlightenment.)

Why then, yearn for enlightenment? Perhaps the whole process is akin to going through the various grades of school...we can be likened at this moment to 8th graders who, having sensed graduation, yearn to skip as many grades as possible and get on with it. However, the frustration is, we cannot do that.

And what about Dreaming? I've asked several dreamers the purpose of lucid dreaming, and specifically what they have learned from the experience, and especially what they may have learned from others encountered in the dreams, those others invariably stated to be superior beings, teachers, advanced souls, etc....including the likes of don Juan, Jesus and the Dalai Lama. I have yet to obtain an answer. What did you learn? Did you learn anything of value towards attaining any goal? Kim suggested perhaps the only purpose of having lucid dreams was to enjoy the experience.

[Mornings Sun]

Don Juan said something to Carlos about him dreaming that he writes the books. That he had to dream them before he could write them (awake).
There is an old story of a Viking ships builder, he could not build a dragon ship before he had dreamed it. It was at the time before drawings of constructions.
For me I used lucid dreaming to practice Tai Chi and zazen a couple of times, it did have a profound effect on my practice next day while awake.
Also the effect of recap done in lucid dreaming is rather effective in letting go of old shit.
To meet with other dreamers that are lucid is a thrill - It is like getting the internet for the first time, with skype and 3D graphics.
A few times beings have showed or taught me stuff in dreaming. One of the more colorful things was a Spider that showed me some movements to do. It was like Chi Gung or Tensegrity, felt real good for my neck and upper back.

Lucid dreaming is unfortunately difficult to get to master.

[Gonzo]

I received this comment in an email -

The purpose of lucid dreaming to a warrior is to perfect the art of creating a milieu in which awareness exists without physical form. In lucid dreams, we are holding everything together (including our own awareness) by intent and will. We are AWARE, in other words, unlike normal dreams. The trick (in theory) is that being able to lucid dream will enable the warrior to create and inhabit "a separate reality" after the death of the physical body - i.e., we create our own "heaven", whatever we want, and whatever we are capable of maintaining.

[Kristopher]

~

Two different comments here. One, is lucid dreaming of any value, and then a comment in regards to, the purpose of Dreaming.

Value and purpose are the quantum entanglements of the thinking mind. Value and purpose are assigned meaning in the eye of the beholder, subjectively.

[redspiderlily]

Snip of an article pertaining to the topic:

<snip>

Lucid dreaming <snip> can be used for living out fantasies, practicing problem solving or dress-rehearsals of important situations in your life such as employment situations, family and relationship issues and more! It can also be used to train your mind to stop bad habits such as quitting smoking. It can be used to stop nightmares, release old fears that no longer serve you such as fear of the dark or fear of heights, release obsessions and work toward new healthier life patters.

<snip> Professional athletes and actors have been using Lucid dreaming techniques to practice their sport or rehearse their performance for years. As mentioned, once you accomplish something in a lucid dream, your body and mind actually feel as though you have done this in real life. Repeated attempts and practices while lucid dreaming have the same effect on body and mind as if you were actually performing, or rehearsing in real life.


Lucid Dreaming can also be used for personal or spiritual exploration. You can uncover aspects of yourself that have been hidden to you for years. With exploration within the lucid dream, you can align your shadowy aspects with your waking self to create a more balanced and harmonious self. Truth be told, there is no end to the types of things we can do in Lucid Dreams. If it is within the realm of your imagination it is completely possible in a lucid dream. Lucid Dreaming is truly a dreamers greatest treasure!

[Derek]

I am interested in the buddhas path, particularily the feat of ending the cycle of rebirth. i see the night sky and the early dawn is coming to start a new day, fresh and free. i had a dream last night and then i woke up. it was a beautiful dream and i met great people there but then i lost them when i woke. i suppose the question is did i really lose them or can i go back into that dream again and meet the same people, or perhaps in a new dream. maybe the cycle of our lives are not truly seperate at all, and merely the forms of our dreams do change. like a purity that can become anything and yet retains a hidden purpose thorugh the cycles. i know that dreams are incredibly powerful. i once was studying memory and the synaptic relay between people and the environment, the ability to transfer memory and align to them. i went to sleep and that night and had a dream i was someone else, i had been that someone else for as long as i could remember, and i sat there going through his memories as my own. i wondered if this is the synaptic relay, the memory system, and the dreaming function that all workes together to form that experience? i came to the conclusion that it was first and most importantly the dreaming center, and the dreaming centre is responsible for creating the entire scenerio. further more i believe it is the dreamer that dreams the physical values of the brain, and the body.

last month i had 11 heart attacks in one day. preemptively i knew i was going to have them, because the knowledge i held on focus told me so. on the way to the hospital i crossed paths to my dreaming body, and pre-projected my own experience. I gained control of my body and quickly rewrote the knowledge sustaining it and that of my heart. i moved my awareness to realise i was a vampire like being, capable of living while dead. i cross referenced ancient knowledges of moving the heart, and changed the knowledge of my blood, circulation, and oxygen. i result was the doctor telling me to my face that i am dead. the machines too saw my being as dead, and my appearace became that of an ashen ghost. i learnt that day to stop and restart my heart with my will and my attentive focus, or my dreaming attention. my blood is now capable of circulating itself, producing oxygen with its own generative capabilities. i see my body as merely a projection of knowledge now, and not as a physical vessel bound my the trappings of other people's knowledges.

now to escape the cycle of death and rebirth is what scares me. to think that is actually a path! it baffles me. i have had many reincarnations, and have even learnt to enter into old patterns of life through my memory and the memory of existence. i see that motion of time is two parts, light and dark, known and unknown, life and "death". first the was darkness and then there was light. it is genesis. attraction. that void space is the place where our dreams do shine. the place were all the pretty pictures and beliefs come to shine and come to rest. that first place where the potential of our pure existence starts to take form, from the immensity that is potential itself raw. what comes to mind in my searchings in the unknown is a castaneda poem - "Just another syntax of our mother's tongue". which means the knowledge itself of genesis, dark and light etc is exactly what formed that picture, a paradigm of creation and destruction for our reasoning system to understand. mind you i find genesis beautiful, and the system liberating and free. however what if one takes a different view and draws different conclusions, painting in that void a new value system of understanding, that is still within the system of rebirth. see without it we would not have escape, time would not progress and move forward into the uncharted beyond.

i once saw that everything had already happened and no new things could grow under the sun, everything had already been said and done. in that position of life it was true, because i saw and understood that to be so. later i rebelled, and in doinf so discovered that something else is there, flowing out beyond me and beyond all the life before me, and even after me, and that is the essence of creation. creation creates and there is the path never taken. it has to be so because all things are so.

i found a star, and in it shined ever path ever taken, every knowledge ever touched, it is my father star, the beginning of life, the creater, and after its long observational watch, i saw his counterpart, the black hole. that is his means of collection. now it happens all the time, always watching me, always leading me, always guiding me. that star leads to ever part of the galaxy, every dream and dreamland formed. it is a guide in the dark night to the light of any system. however the galaxy itself is always expanding, reaching farther into the abstract. that is where i want to be. on the edge of the night, where my dreams never die, where the light comes and goes, and i am free to depart, to restart, and to come back home after the long and wonderous journey. it is i see the trip back home that creates and maintains the living memory of my dreams, and yet that aspect also lives within my being. the memory of existence is alive inside myself too. i believe we are given the tools to create and destroy ourselves, with these tools we can fashion our being in any way we can concieve, and beyond.

Don Carlos didn't need to pre-dream his writing, although it is a dreaming technique to do so, the nagual can also improvise, dancing to the strings of intent. with energy flowing now, a nagual can dance along with the strings touching them while acting in harmony. The two styles work hand in hand as one is aware of them both, they are within the realm of the known. the known does flow into that which one does not yet see, or not yet seen.. or remembered.. to place one's body in a pasition of awareness stems the action produced in such states.

[Kristopher]

~

I forgot about this comment....

I received this comment in an email -

The purpose of lucid dreaming to a warrior is to perfect the art of creating a milieu in which awareness exists without physical form. In lucid dreams, we are holding everything together (including our own awareness) by intent and will. We are AWARE, in other words, unlike normal dreams. The trick (in theory) is that being able to lucid dream will enable the warrior to create and inhabit "a separate reality" after the death of the physical body - i.e., we create our own "heaven", whatever we want, and whatever we are capable of maintaining.

The purpose of lucid dreaming is lucid dreaming. All the rest, above, is commentary in regards to the results OF lucid dreaming. Vehicles and destinations. Know the difference.

Same with death/re-birth or whatever. It's a non-issue. The cycle of re-birth is the result OF ones actions, the destination. What work (vehicle) are you using to take you.......................?

K

[redspiderlily]

Thought this was interesting and sort-of answers the question in the original post (Not that the question really has or NEEDS and answer, but for the sake of convo.... ) A Buddhist perspective on Lucid Dreaming

A Buddhist Perspective on Lucid Dreaming


Within the Buddhist Tantric tradition there is great emphasis on using the dream state of being for developmental ends. There exists a special practice called "dream yoga," which in the West has been presented as one of the "Six Doctrines of Naropa." The dream yoga is a high meditation practice which is performed by the practitioner within the so-called lucid dream state.

However, working directly and consciously in the lucid dream state is not ac-cessible to very many people. As the dream yoga methods are very strong and direct methods for development, I have committed myself to developing ways of dealing with dreams, which on the one hand provide training towards actual dream yoga practice—the practicing within the lucid dream state—and on the other hand can fruitfully be used to confront and dissolve problematic psychological structures more effectively than by dealing with these in the ordinary waking state. Therefore, it is appropriate to talk about two different levels of purposes, a surface level of psychological observance, and a more subtle level of spiritual observance.

Psychologically-oriented practices are concerned mainly with changing our general psychological structures with the purpose of decreasing our everyday prob-lems in relation to self and others. In contrast, the spiritual observance level is a practice level mainly concerned with changing our existential existence, with the purpose of decreasing the distance between, and thus uniting, our rational and non-rational abilities, or our feminine and masculine energies, or our body and mind or substance and consciousness. By healing the gaps and finally uniting subject and object we break the dualistic determination and entrapment of our existence, thus entering into the nature of existence, the essential nature of the universe.

It should be noted that distinguishing these two practice levels is provisional. The two levels follow each other sequentially. One must solve one’s major problems on a psychological level before being able to successfully enter the more subtle spir-itual level where changing one’s existential structures in relation to reality occurs.

One of the main concerns on a psychological level is to obtain a balance be-tween our ordinary coarse-rational contact with and/or interpretation of reality and a nonrational relation with reality. This balance can be obtained, and has traditionally within Buddhism been obtained, from two alternately used angles:

1. One can use methods to awaken and train the nonrational contact, whereby the coarse-rational contact naturally will be softened, and become less rigid and projec-tive and thus more open and clear; or

2. One can use methods to directly reduce the coarse, rationally created reality, to touch upon and be able to perceive and appreciate a more direct and nonmanipulated relationship with reality, a step which in itself will further a nonrational contact with reality.

During the process of establishing a balance between our ordinary, coarse-rational and the nonrational contact with reality our psychological problems change as they are part and parcel of the coarse-rational creations.

In dealing with dreams, in the dream state in particular, we initially train the nonrational way of contacting reality, using our dream body/mind abilities. With this basis we deal with the dream object—and later again with the dream subject—in different ways, slowly breaking the coarse-rational beliefs as well as many other layers of our dualistic way of existence.

>>>>>>>>
The dream state is useful for our purposes due to its subtle qualities. In psycho-logically changing ourselves, it is stronger and more effective to work with our dif-ficulties from a level of "being," which circumvents the coarse-rational domination —as our psychological problems most often are bound up with or are part and par-cel with the coarse-rational approach to reality—and also circumvents the limita-tions of our contact with reality due to our bondage within the rough physical body. If we want to progress in a spiritual direction, change ourselves existentially, change the relation between subject and object towards their unity, then one must transcend both types of limitations.

As we have just shown, our ordinary perception/cognition has a limited contact with the object. This is manifest in different ways. First of all, the perceptive/cogni-tive process of our ordinary waking state is strongly dispersed. The actual percep-tion through the five distinct senses, though they can have direct contact with the five object qualities correlating with the senses, have no unity in themselves and no intellectual abilities. Further, the coarse-rational consciousness, belonging to the sixth-sense consciousness, has no direct perceptive tools by itself. It has to rely on the sense impressions of the five physical senses and the five sense consciousnesses, on top of which it has a strong tendency to create its own individual reality, differing radically from the ordinary "surface reality" as such. Secondly, the perception/cog-nition is bound within the physical body and limited accordingly, i.e., it is space- and time-limited.

In the dream state, as well as in the deep meditation state, perception and cog-nition are united. The sense-impressions are not functionally distinct. They are not dependent on the physical sense organs, but operate directly from within the sixth-sense consciousness. That is to say, the five sense consciousnesses and the sixth-sense consciousness operate naturally in union in the dream/meditation states of being—implying a natural basis for uniting body/mind and subject/object. In gen-eral, within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, body and consciousness always need to work together. A body doesn’t work without a consciousness, and a consciousness doesn’t work without a body.

In the dream state and deep meditation state, we also have/are a body. However, the dream body and the body in the deep meditation state, often named the subtle body, are not of coarse physical nature, but are energy bodies, and have therefore the ability to go beyond the ordinary limitations and bondage of the physical body, i.e. beyond space and time fixations.

You can read a lot more here:
http://www.sawka.com/spiritwatch/abuddhis.htm