Essential Zen

It seems a topic for endless discussion, this from another chat. First the question whether one lives a rational existence or a spiritual existence. I was going to ask for the definition of spiritual, however there was no opportunity to continue the discussion. Then I recalled an email I got a while ago with this quip: "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience: we are spiritual beings having a human existence." Therefore, it's possible to say everything we do is spiritual. What gets defined as spiritual, for better or for worse, are specific thoughts and actions, usually religious, or in the case of Nagualism, doing things like perceiving energy, lucid dreaming for the purpose of engaging with IOB's and the like.

A follow-on topic concerned power, also a topic for endless discussion. In my opinion, it is possible to achieve a state wherein one has learned to manipulate energy, to do extraordinary things, etc, however, both the teachings of don Juan (the four enemies - fear, clarity, power, old age) as well as Zen caution against getting attached to what they call "wondrous powers".

I have suspected the teachings of don Juan are clever cons, one ot the cleverest being the notion of becoming an all-powerful Nagual. The lesson to be learned is not to become a Nagual, but to realize its a superb teaching in losing self-importance, by going beyond the label and thereby the limitation of being considered to be a Nagual.

~

Gonzo wrote:I have suspected the teachings of don Juan are clever cons, one ot the cleverest being the notion of becoming an all-powerful Nagual. The lesson to be learned is not to become a Nagual, but to realize its a superb teaching in losing self-importance, by going beyond the label and thereby the limitation of being considered to be a Nagual.

Your wording of 'becoming' a Nagual is interesting.

All the self-proclaimed naguals I know would state that this 'becoming' cannot occur, as one just 'is' a Nagual based on their energy configuration. Right? To my recollection from CC's work, imho of course, this was what was stated. If someone has a different interpretation I'd love to hear it. As you mentioned, it's always an interesting topic

I like your wording of 'becoming'. Why? Because even if one does have the features or energetic configuration of a Nagual, one still must work through the Warriors Way, or do The Work. This is why I enjoy your wording; There may be tons of naguals out there or there may not be any out there. Wouldn't it be a hoot to find out that what CC describes doesn't exist? Oh yes I know the word nagual comes from some ancient word nahual or what the fuck ever, but you get the gist of what I'm saying. What can the self-proclaimed demonstrate to your second point above? Isn't a seasoned Nagual (which most claim to be) one that has (at least) the wisdom of the basics? How in the world could a seasoned true Nagual be offended by words from the likes of us? Gonz, you know better than I do that if my name is even mentioned to <snip - TPN> (as an example as we've both met her) that her self-importance and ego is off and running for several days, perhaps weeks. C'mon. As to other seasoned self-proclaimed naguals, they hide it better. Yet, after a bit of reading, they are revealed as well. How? There are several key issues to look for, most described in CC's work itself. Some are well hidden, yet Jed pointed those out to me. (I'll address this last line further down).

You mention going beyond the label. Nice one. As mentioned in chat yesterday, a great comment: Titles and labels are for those that need them. (Also keep in mind that there's a difference between Want and Need). This once again leads to your main point....

I guess it seems all the self-proclaimed I know missed nagualism 101. Assumed they'd crossed the finish line and ready to set up shop when they haven't even left the starting blocks with the First Step.

What parameters do we put on this to deem what is worthy and what is not though? I read an article and see ego, you read an article and bow your head to your Naguals worthiness. (Just an example).

My example which I've used many times is Aikido. We have a system. (As do the nagualists and Toltecies, but I've yet to see it demonstrated in any functional manner). Take my comment above, titles and labels are for those that need them. Am I going to tell that to Curtis Sensei, one of the highest ranking Sensei's in the world? Perhaps. He'd probably laugh at me and tell me I'm learning and to get back to work, the question really isn't the right question. He can also demonstrate his skills as well.

Anyone can run down to the local store and purchase a black belt. Same with labeling the self a Nagual. What can you demonstrate though? We see this on the matt, the store bought belt wearers. Even prior to training we can tell who is who.

There's a maturity level that comes with responsibility. Do The Work and take your lumps. Don't judge it, just do it.

Now in Aikido, one may say that it is a martial arts system and demonstration is much simplier than a Toltec system, or Nagualism system or whatever the fuck the cool label of the week is. Is it really though?

Perhaps we just have true leaders that can actually demonstrate their ability. I also see great demonstration in CC's books in regards to don Juan as a seasoned Nagual.

Where is this demonstration by the self proclaimed naguals here on the 'net? Or need it be demonstrated in person, such as Aikido? Yea, I tried that once with <snip - TPN>. What a joke she is (as a Nagual). Right fine person when not defending the Title, but other than that....

"Oh, but my dear Kris, who are you as a lowly student to even be able to choose the Teacher or even determine what a Teacher is"?

Good comment, good point.

Who's setting the criteria? What is the criteria? Who says I'm the student and she's the Nagual? What are we basing this on? Posts and articles written on the Internet? I can write like a motherfucker in regards to Aikido, here on the 'net, and self proclaimed naguals can write like hell on whatever the fuck they write about here on the 'net, yet does good writing skills make one adept as either?

Does poor writing skills and arguing and lack of any warrior attributes make one NOT a Nagual??

Does meeting face-to-face assist?

Obviously not.

I've met <snip - TPN> face to face and so has John. We don't see eye to eye on our perceptions. Oh well, so much for that theory.

So, what are we to do? It's all vanity, all a competition.

But who cares?

Who are we attempting to impress? Why is it all outward, not inward?

It is nice to get together with Maive and Gonz (and DD and MS now) and discuss the inward. Examining our beliefs. It's always nice to get together and share opinions on this or that. Just when one of us thinks we know something, gee, there it goes, right out the window with the rest of the beliefs. Well, I guess I shouldn't say that. Beliefs are just beliefs. Where are they going to go?

So, where does this leave us?

Right here, where we've always been.

Pick your poison. Pick your poison (your teachings, your master, your self-proclaimed nagual, your Nagual, your beliefs) and throw it up against your own mirror of self reflection. What did it do? Did it chip away or did it slide off?

Isn't Life grand? Isn't duality grand?

What are you going to do? What is there to do?

Kris

~

Let's carry on a bit more in regards to inward.

Another example to get to the point

Back to Aikido....

Let's say I'm working with my son on techniques. My son asks my rank and I tell him I'm Godan. (5th degree black belt which I'm not).

He's new to Aikido and can see me perform at least something, so of course he believes me.

Can you see how this relates to naguals (or just about anything)?

My son continues to train and wants to be like pops. He dreams of getting that new colored belt; from white to blue to purple to brown to black. How exciting!

So, my son continues training. We come to class and Ota Sensei is visiting; he's a true Godan.

My sons witnesses the two of us training together and with just a bit of attention can see there's quite a difference between the two of us in many aspects.

My son, as he's still a beginner, questions me on it. I can make all the excuses I want.

My son though, continues to train. He gains experience and knowledge and maturity.

Guess what happens? (Or could happen).

He then looks inside. He's looks inward. He begins to gain wisdom of what is truly occuring, within.

It doesn't matter what pops tells him. He sees changes within. He uses what's given and applies to self.

He just keeps on going. Are you a Godan or a Nagual? He is quite unconcerned. He begins to understand that others are not his concern, even though it may appear that the fakers are only holding themselves back. Yet, who is he to judge?

Does this ring any bells??

K

Rules Of Being A Nagual.

http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/801
post from 2006

Z,
Most excellent post. IMHO We are what we are, its up to others to decide within themselves what that means. We can only live our lives the way we see fit, and allow others to learn from our example, and for us to learn from their example. We are all teaching and learning with every breath we take. It reminds me of a story.

A long time ago when I first started out with this whole spiritual thing I was a shiny new herbalist, aromatherapist saving the world crunch monkey. I knew that everyone would want to know my insights, as they were pure and perfect. I was making business cards and I put my name and underneath I proudly sported "herbalist and Aromatherapist". I was ready to roll...so I disseminated my lovely new cards to anyone that would stand still long enough. I told everyone I was an aromatherapist and I could help them...no one was interested. So I start looking for another strategy. I collected cards of successful aromatherapists and herbalists and noticed something that was different than mine...LETTERS! These folks had cool letters behind their names...Jane Doe CPM, MPH, NpD...well dammie! Thats my problem! no Letters! Im not Bona Fide! I got no prospects! So I search for something that will give me credibility. I go to hairdressing school (I know interesting choice) but I can get my hands on folks and have a certification AND believe it or not, hairdressers do get a certain level of respect. So off I go...Im getting all kinds of action now. Respect, people are searching me out for help, and advice, it was awesome, and completely the "beginners way". I felt the charge of people respecting me which allowed me to respect myself...for a while.
As time has gone by I have met many people with letters...not what I expected at all. Letters are a sham. Even as I go for the highest level of "letters" I now know what they are worth. Not much really, except to give me cred with the folks who will let me do research. What I do with my life has nothing to do with my title. Whatever title may be given to me. What does make a difference is who I am, what I project into the universe. What I let in and what I let out. Period. I can be an example of how to persevere, move forward and punch through things that keep us all locked in our little ego boxes...Or I can be an example of what not to do, and how NOT to punch through the hard things that keep us locked in our little ego boxes, sometimes to see that, it is educational. So, taking the long way around...the proof is in the pudding. Call yourself whatever you want, someone will respond. Dont call yourself anything, someone will respond, its up to each individual to decide what the truth is for themselves, and what is untruth. We are all lovely and we are all enlightened Naguals...thats my truth.

Or to clarify...
Its like someone claiming that they have worked toward advanced degrees...say a Masters Degree, and they have barely finished High School. Talking to that person for ~5 minutes it becomes most painfully obvious that there are lies afoot. Some spiritual teachers can be that way.

~

Mornings Sun wrote:Rules Of Being A Nagual.

http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/801
post from 2006

Hello MS. Nice to see you here!

Are a couple of the rules: Impeccability, Losing Self Importance and not taking things personally?

Of course my posts yesterday set off a flurry of De-fense from the self proclaimed nagual. Let's run through a couple of comments:

Oh, before I get started on this, since there was such a knee-jerk reaction it just goes to show a lack of anything nagualicious. It's painfully obvious to see, but I'll still add comments below just for shits and giggles.

These are private threats:

"....bla, bla, bla, something about drunken vendettas and drunken whining".

Poor 'seeing' on your part, PN. (Petit Nagual). I've not a sip of the hooch in over a week. But hold on! Tonight is wednesday night, and I'll certainly be hoisting a few pints with the Hawaiians. Perhaps that's what you 'saw!' (I doubt it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt).

It's also intersting you've stooped to name calling. <chuckles>

"...bla, bla, bla, something about us being a disgrace to the human race and not wanting to learn anything". <chuckles> So what? Is this Your concern?? Why are you so concerned about us, Petit? Who gives a rats ass about the human race? Are you out to save the world now? How could you possibly know if and what I want to learn? I've already proved (above) that you can't 'see'. Oh well....

Before I continue on, let me make one comment. Petit, why don't you come out of hiding and post here with us if you agree or disagree? The sneaking around and private e-mails really make you look bad. Are you attempting to ruin your own reputation?? Did you miss the lesson on being available and un-available? Hiding is of no use since we all know you're hiding.

Ok, let's continue on with a few more private comments...

"...bla, bla, bla, something about hating Gonz and not liking me". Gosh, I'm sorry, is this a popularity contest? It seems only one of us here is concerned with being liked and that would be you, toots.

"...bla, bla, bla, a good deal about how we're out to get her, bla, bla, bla". Gee, paranoid much? Why would you be concerned At ALL with what we're doing? This reminds me of when Gonz asked me to join the chat over on Shamanic Warrior. I joined up and jumped in. G told me later that day how he'd received communication from TPN (The Petit Nagual, it's quicker to type than the self-proclaimed nagual), and how pissed she was that I was over there. That I was stalking her, finding out all her hiding places she visits to discredit her. <chuckles>

Yea, right. I'd never been there and only joined to chat. Have I posted? Sure. Have I done anything to discredit TPN? Nope. Gee, concerned much, PN? Assume much? Judge much? Yet, let's continue on....

Now TPN gets down-right nasty and threatening. "...bla, bla, bla, I hope the two of you die in horrible pain, etc., etc". Whoa. Can you say....lost it?

Could you see Juanito doing this? Let's say Pablito decides Juanito is a fake and tell 'm to fuck off. Can you see Juanito having a hissy fit, being concerned, judgemental and telling Pablito that he hopes he dies in horrible pain? LOL! Yea, right.

We shall end with my favorite, an implied yet vague threat. "....bla, bla, bla, oh, I'll get you my pretty. I'll get you"! <chuckles>

Going to get us in the Astral are ya', Petit? Going to bring the big O out?

Bring it. Come and get some. The physical, astral whatever 'plane' you'd like.

Oh, and I'd like to meet your two pussy side-kicks, Meloncholy Man and the other self-proclaimed nagual, Dan.

You know where I'm at, come and get some. You all can be here in under a four hour drive.

I already offered to come to you, meet you on your own turf, but the three of you pussed out on that. So, my offer stands.

Kris

P.S. Oh, and if you puss out on visiting me in the physical, come and get me in Dreaming or whatever. I'll be waiting.

<chuckles> Yea, right. This is going to be a hoot. Last night, powerful Dreaming. I guess you couldn't make it, eh? Perhaps I'll update this daily and see how close you get to me. C'mon, PT. Show us all what you've got. Show us your true Nagual powers.

Or, can you walk away from my petty comments here and truly be unconcerned??

Of course you can't. You've got to be the Star, center of attention. Well, now you've got it. You are the center here on YAW as well as half the members of the Shamanic Warrior group are watching.

This is what you wanted, isn't it? Attention?

Demonstrate, please.

Do something, anything.

What are you going to do?

~

<yawns>

Good morning!

Excellent Dreaming last night. No signs of The Petit Nagual.

PN, couldn't make it in Dreaming last night due to your brain tumor?

<<chuckles>>

Good one.

I'll have to give you points for flair and creativity.

Yes, my fellow warrior travelers of infinity, this is the new attention seeking method of TPN. (It's all about her, her and more her). I suppose all the old worn out stories have lost their excitment, something new and exciting must be created. A terminal brain tumor. When this was announced in chat, even I, the resident assholio, was suprised at the response and lack of concern.

"Complete lie to draw more attention".

"Yea, right. Once a faker always a faker".

"Habitual liars don't change. This is some sort of ploy to attract more attention".

Wow, rough crowd.

The possibilities are endless on this one, yet I'll take a couple shots in the dark.

This was concocted so that she can 'die' metaphorically, slip away into the darkness. There won't be a physical death. Well, there will be for all of us, but you know what I mean. Death won't occur based on some attention-seeking story.

Now, this method mentioned above is a good one; it's kinda sorta what we're all looking to do. Shed the self importance, yadda, yadda. This would be all fine and dandy if she'd just dissapear. Yet, just go. As some band once sang, "Don't go away mad, just go away". This is the key, just die.

Why the attention? Drama? Face death (since it is going to occur) like a warrior. Use it as an advisor.

Oh, no, that would be impeccable. Forgot who I'm dealing with. Let's complain a bit more, draw more attention to the self. You get the idea; once again, nothing nagualicious going on here.

Second theory is that which is created can then be manipulated and 'fixed'.

This is a good marketing ploy I use. Figure out what's wrong, rub it in their face, relate to them a bit on how they feel, then provide the solution.

So, the brain tumor was created to thus be used to demonstrate her nagual powers of self-healing. (Since these powers cannot be demonstrated to any of us, this is a good move). Oh yes, there will be a miraculous recovery, inches from death.

This also provides good content for more stories. Another thing I'm always harping on to others who are attempting to market their business. You have to have great content. Original, creative, etc., etc.

Can you see how this provides great content? The big O will ride in from infinity, his long dark beautiful hair blowing in the wind, coming back from wherever he was to save the day! Some dramatic and traumatic tales will spin from this, perhaps (if there's really any good writing going on) how the healing will take place in the second or third attention. Of course it will carry on and on, attaining its ultimate goal: More attention for her.

Let's see what other attention seeking methods this will bring.

Should be interesting....

Kris

P.S. Or, this could be instant karma. Create a thought in your head of death and pain for others, receive it yourself. Instant karma.

~

Actual chat with the self-proclaimed yesterday. Nothing much except more points to defend.

What happened to the attributes of a nagual that there were no points to defend??

She was so concerned and had to defend her point so much that there was a 'need' on her part to send messages to others, a private smear campaign against gonz and I. <chuckles>

This is always revealing as well, the re-actions from the recipients. Oh well.

Always something to learn...this is going to be interesting!

Kris

~

What we need to do, whether in- or out-of-body, is to ignore or tear down the No Trespassing signs, the taboos, the notice that says Holy of Holies, the distortions of time and translation, the soft black holes of euphoria, the mysticisms, the myths, the fantasies of an eternal father or mother image, and then take a good look with our acquired and growing left brain. Nothing is sacred to the point where it should not be investigated or put under inquiry.

Robert Monroe
Ultimate Journey

"If it needs defending, it needs examining".

Gonzo

Zamurito wrote:Anyone can run down to the local store and purchase a black belt. Same with labeling the self a Nagual. What can you demonstrate though? We see this on the matt, the store bought belt wearers. Even prior to training we can tell who is who.

This bit from Zam's first post stand out to me... "Same with labeling the self a Nagual". Reminds me of the Zen question, "Show me the mind?"... Show me the self. If being a "Nagual" is a matter of energetic make up, how is that even remotely comparable through association to the executive ego? Taking one delusion to justify and identify with another. If it were truly and energetic characteristic it’s only method of “proclamation” would be through being, not labeling, or any other manner of comparison.

Affinity wrote:

Zamurito wrote:Anyone can run down to the local store and purchase a black belt. Same with labeling the self a Nagual. What can you demonstrate though? We see this on the matt, the store bought belt wearers. Even prior to training we can tell who is who.

This bit from Zam's first post stand out to me... "Same with labeling the self a Nagual". Reminds me of the Zen question, "Show me the mind?"... Show me the self. If being a "Nagual" is a matter of energetic make up, how is that even remotely comparable through association to the executive ego? Taking one delusion to justify and identify with another. If it were truly and energetic characteristic it’s only method of “proclamation” would be through being, not labeling, or any other manner of comparison.

I think what Zam is commenting on are "self-proclaimed" Naguals, not those who may have been born with the energetic qualities which could be nurtured. Note that the only person who perceived that capacity in don Juan was Julian, and he put dJ through rigorous training. In the case of the "self-proclaimed" there is zero evidence of them ever having received any such training, even if there is a possibility they have the inherent energetic capacities.

Understood, what I was referring to in my post was that even if you had the energetic make up of something non average, the use of labeling it would still be a stumbling block to the truth.

Also thought the quote below was interesting when considering this threads content...

"The path to sainthood goes through adulthood. There are no quick and easy shortcuts. Ego boundaries must be hardened before they can be softened. An identity must be established before it can be transcended. One must find one's self before one can lose it." - Scott Peck


Pleasantly enough, I found myself listening to this song shortly after having read this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trpa8iGs8Yg

Affinity wrote:Understood, what I was referring to in my post was that even if you had the energetic make up of something non average, the use of labeling it would still be a stumbling block to the truth.

Also thought the quote below was interesting when considering this threads content...

"The path to sainthood goes through adulthood. There are no quick and easy shortcuts. Ego boundaries must be hardened before they can be softened. An identity must be established before it can be transcended. One must find one's self before one can lose it." - Scott Peck


Pleasantly enough, I found myself listening to this song shortly after having read this thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trpa8iGs8Yg

I agree, however, the one being labeled has the opportunity to reject it, and if they accept it, as you indicate, it's a stumbling block because it's a matter of ego.

The interesting thing about, as an Internet Nagual, being duplicitous (or in Internet forum and chat room terms, a "sock puppet") is that you can ultimately defend it by saying it's a teaching technique. That avoids the label "chicken shit mofo". Perhaps the biggest lesson learned is to avoid them.

In my opinion it takes far more courage to be yourself, openly, take your lumps directly, and deal with it.