The Storyteller

[Gonzo]

The REAL question is who or what rebirths?

my spin? Nothing "rebirths" as we know it, our energy merges with all of the other energies that have gone before and that energy becomes something new with our added unique energy

Bottom line, nobody alive knows. However. I prefer the notion that each of us is a uniquely identifiable entity throughout this process, which is the business of experiencing many lifetimes and eventually getting off the wheel of death and rebirth.

There's lots of literature that relates, and perhaps my favorite two are "Messages from Michael" by Yarboro and "Far Journeys" by Monroe. Why not continue to be the person you know yourself to be, ego, warts and all? Why not experience many lifetimes as your 'self'? What's it like to be the opposite sex? What's it like to be in God knows how many different circumstances? Through it all, still the person you are. Why should that being dissolve, or disintegrate? There is no proof that occurs. On the other had, we have a proof of sorts of the same being reincarnating, re tales of the Dalai Lama.

[Red Heart]

Why should that being dissolve, or disintegrate?

Because we would then be God, I think that as the beings we are we are ill equipped to handle alot of power and omniscience...thats why we dont have them, we aint wired that way...imho of course...

[Gonzo]

Why should that being dissolve, or disintegrate?

Because we would then be God, I think that as the beings we are we are ill equipped to handle alot of power and omniscience...thats why we dont have them, we ain't wired that way...imho of course...

Well, I have a different opinion. I believe we DO have a lot of power and omniscience, all the powers we've heard about, and read about. They wouldn't exist if someone was not able to describe them. I think was we progress, we become more and more aware of the powers, and more and more able to use them. Zen refers to them as the wondrous powers. Don Juan and others exhibit some of their uses. Zen itself states learning about them and learning to use them is to be experienced but gone through, because you can become trapped by their wondrousness. And, DJ himself mentioned them in the four enemies of the warrior.

Further, it's convenient to invent God, or Gods, as a way of our own not taking responsibility. "The Devil made me do it."

[Red Heart]

intense dreaming? last night
I went to bed last night pretty late for me. I remember laying down then the weirdness happened.
When I closed my eyes I was immediately in my dreaming cave. There were dead vines everywhere like no one had been there to clean in ages. It looked that way a coupla weeks ago but I did not clean it up for some reason. Last night was different. One of my dreaming guides that I havent seen in ages was there. I had to clean up the mess before we could go down the rabbit hole. As I was cleaning up I heard a voice from the hole "We need to get you healed..." (bleah I hate that, sounds so new agey, however it is true nonetheless) so I got my shit cleaned up and off I went, I dont remember anything till I am in a baroque french music room in front of a piano waiting for someone. I feel like it is a teacher. I remember thinking, I already know how to play...I will impress him with my "stuff"
The music teacher arrives and he is a handsome oriental type person in a cream colored tux. He was tanned and had white hair. He never spoke but I knew what to do (even though I knew I didnt know how to play in waking) I surprised both of us by going into a rousing "Moonlight Sonata" then the teacher started playing on the same piano but the lower parts and I was playing the higher keys, and he pushed me pushed me pushed me to be louder, better (more precise) and more expressive. I thought this is cool, I have always wanted to play an instrument...just never got around to it. Then he started playing the william tell overture. Faster and faster, I was playing too, I was out of breath and my hands were cramping because of all of the keystrokes. It was exhilarating! Then I woke up, I had to go to the bathroom, didnt turn on any lights and went back to dreaming. I dont recall exactly what I played but I know I played all night with this guy. Was really wonderful!

[Red Heart]

Enlightenment is characterized by the extinction of desire and suffering

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

the extinction of desire and suffering is to just react differently to stimuli that would induce those emotions...doncha think?

Then why must we remain victims of our own suffering? Just stop. Ka-Blang. Why is it we cannot do that? or maybe why is it that we WILL not do that? Physiological? Emotional? Self serving? (ie a way to explain our own OBVIOUS shortcomings) why dont we all just try for a day to only say and think good things about ourselves? Lets see how that works out. Frankly Im skeptical that it can be done...the storyteller is that strong.

[Gonzo]

Maybe because we are defined by what we suffer. Take that away, and what's left?

[Red Heart]

Maybe because we are defined by what we suffer. Take that away, and what's left?

a very astute thought when mixed with the notion that all spiritual disciplines work to suppress ego in order to experience peace..

[Gonzo]

Peace...what a concept. What if we are here to experience drama? In that case, peace is merely the lull before the storm, and what we are really interested in is the storm.

[Red Heart]

Is that so?

[Red Heart]

the Buddha said, "Those who are unawakened grasp their thoughts and feelings, their body, their perceptions and consciousness, and take them as solid, separate from the rest. Those who are awakened have the same thoughts and feelings, perceptions, body, and consciousness, but they are not grasped, not held, not taken as oneself."

I snatched this from a different thread, Thanks Affers! Got me to thinking...Im not sure quite what yet but its got the brain pan a boilin with thought and possibilities =)

[Gonzo]

the Buddha said, "Those who are unawakened grasp their thoughts and feelings, their body, their perceptions and consciousness, and take them as solid, separate from the rest. Those who are awakened have the same thoughts and feelings, perceptions, body, and consciousness, but they are not grasped, not held, not taken as oneself."

Hm. Far be it from me to disagree with Gautama, however...my response some time ago to this quote was to say there is no such thing as awakening. Therefore, "those who are awakened" are, as the Zen quote goes, deluding themselves.

What if Gautama, Jesus, Mohammad, Moses, Lao Tzu, et al were laying out ideas and notions and such for essentially "children"? A prime example would be The Ten Commandments, which, when I first encountered them even as a child, seemed ridiculously childish. What if the other notions, such as this quoted above, were in a way intended for perhaps adolescents? Its easy to get that impression also reading Jesus' statements in the bible as well as Gautama's comments in The Dhammapada, Lao Tzu in The Tao.

It's conceivable we could understand these teachings and either build upon them or go beyond them, rather like Einstein saying he stood on the shoulders of those who preceded him. Perhaps we could do likewise spiritually.

[Red Heart]

Hm. Far be it from me to disagree with Gautama, however...my response some time ago to this quote was to say there is no such thing as awakening. Therefore, "those who are awakened" are, as the Zen quote goes, deluding themselves

No thats what has got me going. I have postulated that there is no such thing as enlightenment because we already are enlightened, and cannot attain something we already are. And yes I do believe that enlightenment is a snipe hunt. Just wanted to be really clear about where Im coming from.

The quote got me to thinking about the experiences I have been having lately. It would seem that others have had much the same experience that I am having right now. I no longer grasp onto the things I perceive to be different from me, nor the same as me...I however, am not one with the universe. At this point I have no clue as to who I am, or what my "place" is nor do I have any plans to go find out. I am watching it unfold. A very interesting time to be sure.

[Red Heart]

I am.
Okay, could we get more egocentric here? Who cares? What difference does it make? In the bible God created the universe with those two words. We also create our universes with those two words. Look around you, you will see I am.

That popped into my melon on the ride home yesterday.

[Red Heart]

That last thought brought me to this thought...why are we looking for "something" whatever we are seeking? Many of us haven't even dealt with were we are, much less something "else"

Seeking seems to be a pastime to distract from your experience NOW. Thats it.

Dream fragment comin on....Before sleep last night I was meditating on the meaning of ego and its place and purpose. Don Juan came into my consciousness and from the book making a decision and fretting about it before then once the decision is made go about it with reckless abandon, never looking back...thats important somehow, hm cant remember how it all connected...

[Red Heart]

reckless abandon....
is that the reason to understand ego for what it is? Our ego tells us stuff..."you can, you cant, you should/shouldn't". If you listen, make a decision then go for it, you will have acted with efficiency of energy. hm the train is getting derailed, but I know something is important there