Thoughts on morality

[Gonzo]

What's the real reason for morality? And within the definition of "morality" I include the notion of "the right way to live", which has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere.

Morality exists out of fear. The primary fear is of anarchy, and with that, fear of those capable of doing what they will with another. Morality provides the rules for behavior and one way or another are taught to us as children as a major aspect of socialization. We are taught all aspects of right and wrong, taught to share, taught to respect others, and so on. I do not believe we are born with an innate sense of right and wrong, and my belief is reinforced by having raised four children.

Further, the existence of rules provide for those who follow them a sense of rightness for their own actions and more importantly, a socially accepted sense of wrongness for those who do not. There are interesting exceptions, however, since all seem to love lets say the "proper" rogue ("The Outlaw Josie Wales"), or perhaps the heroes of the movie "Matrix", rule-breakers all, but in their case, for the "proper" cause. From Agent Smith's standpoint, they were rule-breakers to be caught and punished. Whoever is dominant gets to set the rules.

An aspect of having morality is self-protection. If you follow the rules, you can identify the thugs, who don't follow the rules, and you may also presume society itself will condemn the thugs. Were there no rules, its possible the thugs would cause personal harm or potential death, minimally annoyance.

In a discussion the notion arose concerning morality and IOB's. If morality is a human creation, which I submit it is, what of inorganic beings? Do they, as well, exist within a set of rules? Why would they? There is no need, and that is not because they innately know right from wrong...it's because right and wrong are irrelevant. They are irrelevant merely because IOB's are immortal. As Richard Bach said in "Illusions":

"We are game-playing, fun-having creatures; we are the otters of the universe. We cannot die, we cannot hurt ourselves any more than illusions on the screen can be hurt."

and

"There is no good and there is no evil, outside of what makes us happy and what makes us unhappy."

In other words, we are actually IOB's. If you are immortal, there is no concern of thugs. In fact, in that circumstance, thugs are totally disarmed because there is absolutely nothing they can do to hurt you.

I'm reminded of an ancient story about a fierce warrior confronting a monk. The warrior told the monk he was facing one who could kill him instantly with one stroke of his sword. The monk replied that he was facing one who didn't care.

In effect, the monk completely disarms the warrior, in the same fashion that one utterly without fear could confront any thug and disarm him. The whole thing seems to center around fear, and in my opinion, the essence of being an IOB is fearlessness. We, within human form, deal with fear by establishing morality.

[Zamurito]

~

Hey Gonz,

Enjoyed your post, good POV expressed.

Yet...

Is this the real issue here?

Or, is the real issue, you pitting your views against others?

Per chat it's obvious where the discussion has arisen and I Know you understand the people you are dealing with, yes or no?

A Warrior has no points to defend; would you agree with that? No-thing.

Dealing with weak, fearful, conceited people..................why? "They know not what they do."

Would it not be more productive and efficient to work with the tools (people) we've discussed?

You mention entertainment value, yet, do you truly enjoy watching others struggle and suffer? The more you entertain them, the more they struggle. You do realize you can't change anyone, right?

Hey, I did it, for a long time. It's just that nowadays, it's more entertaining working with 'those that get it' and working through my own attachments, laughing at myself, rather than wasting time with those that clearly don't get it, won't get it and won't take the first step.

Maybe I'm just weird though.

[Gonzo]

...is the real issue, you pitting your views against others?

There is no doubt this topic is the result of conversations with others. The result of the conversations was essentially a dictum to state the views expressed on the other forum were absolute, and to continue arguing against those views, was considered an abuse. The implication was either to accept the general belief there or stop discussing the issue. It's not my forum, and obviously, they have a right to promote whatever ideas they wish and to regulate all discussions. Therefore, I chose to post my own ideas on my own forum, not as retaliation, but because I believe my notions have some relevance. If others choose to discuss, they are free to do so.

Per chat it's obvious where the discussion has arisen and I Know you understand the people you are dealing with, yes or no?

Yes. They are free to not only have their own opinions, but on their own forum, to regulate what anyone else has to say, especially if those notions challenge that which has been posted.

A Warrior has no points to defend; would you agree with that? No-thing.

I would agree with that, partially...I would amend that to say, an "ideal warrior". I'm at this point more intrigued with the way of being of an IOB in the regard of having no points to defend. The only warriors I know of are warriors in the sense as those defined in "Messages From Michael" in which the warrior is in a sense an archetypal personality type. None of the folk I've dealt with on these forums match that description no matter their protestations. In fact, its quite easy to say anyone who proclaims publicly he is a warrior, by the mere fact of his proclamation, is not.

Dealing with weak, fearful, conceited people..................why? "They know not what they do."

They may yield a certain amount of entertainment.

Would it not be more productive and efficient to work with the tools (people) we've discussed?

I'm not interested in being more productive nor efficient in regard anyone else. We are all on our own.

You mention entertainment value, yet, do you truly enjoy watching others struggle and suffer? The more you entertain them, the more they struggle. You do realize you can't change anyone, right?

No one changes. I posted that notion. In regard poking others for whatever reason, they are all free to either object or to remove themselves. I don't contribute to their struggles. They all have their own opportunity to be real.

[angelfire]

I've noticed as I put myself 'out there' in the world and not necessarily of it, humans react in repeated predictable behavioral patterns. In this world of chaos, we as humans try to 'make order' instead of accepting the natural flow of the Universe. We push for duality because it makes us 'feel' better, or makes us feel as if we've accomplished something ... when in fact it simply causes more 'struggle' and resentment ... "woe is me" ... "it's always someone else's' fault" ... "they're 'wrong' and I'm 'right' " ... "come to my defense, someone is attacking me" ... heh! But the reality is that we're merely fooling ourselves into 'cementing' beliefs that make us righteous creatures based purely on Emotion. The ultimate fear being the Fear of No-Self. The Fear of Death as we know it.

I've always said that these forums remind me of the beginnings of Religion ... belief upon belief that makes everyone "feel good". It's a comfort zone that masks the Fear. Fear-based, Fear-driven dialogue trying to prove that your 'kool-aid' is better than mine ... lol! When the only result is that your tongue is going to be purple and mine is going to be red. IN the Universe it doesn't really matter much. Is Morality a fear based concept derived from cultural conditioning, with each culture differing in their degree of beliefs? Does a baby know innately 'right' from 'wrong'? If you didn't know what rape was, would you feel 'wronged'? There is No absolute ... and this Scares the hell out of humans.

Reminds me of Florinda Donners account of a ... let's see ... what shall I name it? ... a cold blooded murder? ... premeditated murder? ... some call it infanticide. These indigenous indians would probably refer to it as "the right way to live" ...

From Shabono by Florinda Donner:

As I stood up from behind a bush I saw Arasuwe's youngest wife and her mother slowly pushing their way through the thicket in the direction of the river. Quietly I followed the two women. They had no baskets with them- only a piece of sharpened bamboo. The pregnant woman held her hands to her belly as if supporting its heavy weight. They stopped under an arapuri tree, where the undergrowth had been cleared and broad platanillo leaves had been scattered on the ground. The pregnant woman knelt on the leaves, pressing her abdomen with both hands. A soft moan escaped her lips, and she gave birth.

I held my hand over my mouth to stifle a giggle. I could not conceive that giving birth could be so effortless, so fast. The two women talked in whispers, but neither one of them looked at, or picked up, the shiny wet infant on the leaves.

With the bamboo knife, the old woman cut the umbilical cord, then looked around until she found a straight branch. I watched her place the stick across the baby's neck, then step with both feet at either end. There was a faint snapping sound. I was not sure if it was the baby's neck or if it was the branch that had cracked.

The afterbirth they wrapped in one bundle of platanillo leaves, the small lifeless body into another. They tied the bundles with vines, and placed them under the tree.
I tried to hide behind the bushes as the women got up to leave, but my legs would not obey me. I felt drained of all emotion, as if the scene in front of me were some bizarre nightmare. The women looked at me. A faint flicker of surprise registered on their faces, but I saw no pain or regret in their eyes.

As soon as they were gone I untied the vines. The lifeless body of a baby girl lay on the leaves as if in sleep. Long black hair, like silk strands, stuck to her slippery head. The lashless lids were swollen, covering the closed eyes. The trickle of blood running from nose and mouth had dried, like some macabre onoto design on the faint purplish skin. I pried open the small fists. I checked the toes to see if they were complete: I found no visible deformity.

The late afternoon had spent itself. The dried leaves made no rustling sound under my bare feet: They were damp with the night. The wind parted the leafy branches of the ceibas. Thousands of eyes seemed to be staring at me; indifferent eyes, veiled in green shadows. I walked down the river, and sat on a fallen log that had not yet died. I touched the clusters of new shoots that desperately wanted to see the light. The cricket's call seemed to mock my tears.

I could smell the smoke from the huts and I resented those fires that burned day and night, swallowing time and events. Black clouds hid the moon, cloaking the river in a veil of mourning. I listened to the animals- those that wake from their day's sleep and roam the forest at night. I was not afraid. A silence, like a soft dust from the stars, fell around me. I wanted to fall asleep, and wake up knowing it had all been a dream.

Through a patch of clear sky I saw a shooting star. I could not help smiling. I had always been fast to make a wish, but I could not think of any.


I felt Ritimi's arm around my neck. Like some forest spirit she had sat down noiselessly beside me. The pale sticks at the corners of her mouth shone in the dark as if they were made of gold. I was grateful she was near me, that she did not say a word.

The wind brushed away the clouds that obscured the moon: Its light covered us in a faint blue. Only then did I notice old Kamosiwe squatting beside the log, his eye fixed on me. He began to talk, slowly, enunciating each word. But I was not listening. Leaning heavily on his bow, he motioned us to follow him to the shabono. He stopped by his hut: Ritimi and I walked on to ours.

"Only a week ago, women and men cried," I said, sitting in my hammock. "They cried believing Kamosiwe was going to die. Today I saw Arasuwe's wife kill her newborn child."

Ritimi handed me some water. "How could the woman feed a new baby at her breast when she has a child that still suckles?" she said briskly. "A child who has lived this long."

Intellectually I grasped Ritimi's words. I was aware that infanticide was a common practice among Amazonian Indians. Children were spaced approximately two to three years apart. The mother lactated during this time, and refrained from bearing another child in order to sustain an ample supply of milk. If a deformed or female child were born during this time, it was killed, so as to give the nursing child a better chance of survival.

Emotionally, however, I was unable to accept it. Ritimi held my face, forcing me to look at her. Her eyes shone, her lips trembled with feeling. "The one who has not yet glimpsed at the sky has to return from where it came." She stretched her arm toward the immense black shadows that began at our feet and ended in the sky. "To the house of thunder."

[Zamurito]

~

But the reality is that we're merely fooling ourselves into 'cementing' beliefs that make us righteous creatures based purely on Emotion. The ultimate fear being the Fear of No-Self. The Fear of Death as we know it.

People are so fearful of two things: Death, and that the world is going to end. So fearful in fact, that they are 'willing' it to happen.

[Gonzo]

~

But the reality is that we're merely fooling ourselves into 'cementing' beliefs that make us righteous creatures based purely on Emotion. The ultimate fear being the Fear of No-Self. The Fear of Death as we know it.

People are so fearful of two things: Death, and that the world is going to end. So fearful in fact, that they are 'willing' it to happen.

Talk about drama....

[Zamurito]

~

Hahahaha!

Drama you say?? High Plains Drama? Or was that High Plains Drifter?

(Only if you promote MY beliefs though, OK?)

(Oh, and do what you will within MY definition, OK?)

(Your experience is valid only if it validates MINE, OK?)

(Break down Your beliefs and evolve dude, but don't you dare question MINE!)

Oh, btw, what flavor Kool-Aid would you prefer??

[Gonzo]

Oh, btw, what flavor Kool-Aid would you prefer??

Anything purple will do.