The Law of the Ladder

[Gonzo]

So if working solo is so important then way do we have this group?

What's the title on the forum?

A forum for those interested in spiritual evolution to exchange ideas and to learn.

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate your responses. I’ve read all of Jed’s books… I followed them up by reading Richard Rose’s work The Albigen Papers because there seemed to be many similarities between the two writers, so much that it seemed likely that Jed may have studied with Rose or was inspired by his methods. Having now finished reading both author’s works, it still seems to me that Jed was possibly inspired by Rose’s approach. Particularly, stepping away from untruth to move closer to truth, methods of self inquire, taking the first step, and all the rest of it.

What I don’t like about Rose is his erudite way of communicating his thoughts on spiritual matters while Jed on the other hand has a very direct and common way of expressing the process of awakening and the characteristics of being awake.

I haven't read much of Rose, mostly because what he has to say doesn't appeal to me. However, from what little I have read, I must say I see no correlation between his "teachings" and those of McKenna. McKenna, to me, is similar to some of those old fierce Zen masters who, if you didn't answer their questions with your entire, clear, spontaneous being, would kick ur ass. Rose seems more about the love and kindness thing, and following the rules.

My take on all this is simple... There is no point. There’s no point to Zazen, there’s no point to Yoga, there’s no point to participating in a Self-Inquire Discussion Groups. There is no seeking enlightenment.

Whoa. If that's true, why are you bothering with all these things? Why not grab a six pack and head for the park?

Since I’m not seeking the enlightenment objective I will hang out in this group with you hypocrites.

I found this comment by Samuel Johnson when I looked up "hypocrisy" on Wikipedia:

Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.

[Gonzo]

Despite that this is directed to Zam, I still wanted to comment.

Thanks Zam, that's been my take on things from the get go... that is to say that there is a distinction between solo work and group discussion. I didn't really understand why there was such distain for the idea of participating in a Self-Inquire Discussion Group. Maybe it's the official sounding name of the thing after all or perhaps just the rush to judgment. I just took for granted that the conclusion wouldn't be drawn that talking about self inquire could take the place of actually doing the self inquiring.

In my own experience with group efforts, I found them to be ineffectual. Those efforts were in group psychotherapy. I suspect AA is a similar thing from those I know who have been or an members. They did nothing for me.

And then there is history, if we are to believe it, notably concerning various spiritual adepts, all of whom, I believe, achieved their status solely because of their own efforts. I once asked someone in regard the argument about self being supreme or not, for whom did they seek enlightenment? For whom do you expend effort in the spiritual realm? For self, and for self alone. It's not a group thing.

This discussion brought to mind something I read about an American Indian psychotherapy of sorts. If a person was distraught, out of sorts, whatever, they were sent to a sort of camp that was surrounded by Dog Soldiers. They were not allowed to leave. The rule was they had to tell their story every day, to everyone. Each had his turn, but he had to tell his entire story. Eventually, each got rather bored with their own story and began embellishing things. Obviously, everyone else got sick and tired of hearing the same old shit, and eventually, when each ran out of gas, they were allowed to leave.

[Affinity]

Seems reasonable to me that any discussion group’s goals would consist of the exchange of ideas and to learn. You say that you’ve found groups based on your experience to be ineffectual, yet you’ve hosted YAW for years now. Speaking for myself I’ve found our little group to be a good forum for the exchanges of ideas and I have learned a number of things through my participation. That being said, I would not accredit YAW with any amount of personal awakening, anymore than I would Zazen, Yoga, or Spiritual Autolysis.

And so Nan-yueh took up a piece of tile and began rubbing it. Ma-tsu asked Nan-yueh what he was doing: "I'm polishing this to make a mirror." Ma-tsu scoffed, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?" Nan-yueh rebutted, "How can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

I’ll say again… I took for granted that the conclusion wouldn't be drawn that talking about self inquire could take the place of actually doing the self inquiring.

[Gonzo]

Seems reasonable to me that any discussion group’s goals would consist of the exchange of ideas and to learn. You say that you’ve found groups based on your experience to be ineffectual, yet you’ve hosted YAW for years now.

Entirely different ball game. If you've participated in a group therapy session, which I suspect you have not, you would see the difference.

Speaking for myself I’ve found our little group to be a good forum for the exchanges of ideas and I have learned a number of things through my participation. That being said, I would not accredit YAW with any amount of personal awakening, anymore than I would Zazen, Yoga, or Spiritual Autolysis.

Good on ya. That's really the purpose of the forum and the chat, besides entertainment.

And so Nan-yueh took up a piece of tile and began rubbing it. Ma-tsu asked Nan-yueh what he was doing: "I'm polishing this to make a mirror." Ma-tsu scoffed, "How can you make a mirror by polishing a tile?" Nan-yueh rebutted, "How can you make a Buddha by sitting in meditation?"

I’ll say again… I took for granted that the conclusion wouldn't be drawn that talking about self inquire could take the place of actually doing the self inquiring.

I'm not sure that anyone concluded that way. There seemed to be a consensus, however, against doing a group thing.

[Affinity]

I'm not sure that anyone concluded that way. There seemed to be a consensus, however, against doing a group thing.

You're doing a "group thing" right here... You may want to further your witty research of the word hypocrite and extend your internet sojourn beyond Wikipedia, you seem to lack an understanding of its definition.

[Gonzo]

I don't know where I found the following but it needs sharing I think. Sorta reads like McKenna...

"The spiritual seeker is like the man sitting at home on his sofa, who gets the bright idea to go in search of home, so he packs his backback, programs his GPS and heads for the hills.

Where is he going if every step he takes is one step further away from his goal? He's on a journey to discover this fact, and only this. There is no other reason.

He passes through streets lined with booths. Everything he could ever want is available at the spiritual bizzare but the one thing he's looking for; his own home. Nobody can tell him where it is or sell it to him or give him a map or beat it into him. Even the wisest can only point him back the way he came, but he's already been that way.

He comes upon the big tent. "Welcome to the Spiritual Circus" Here he can study the words of the masters, learn all the tricks and techniques. He learns to meditate and be blissed out and present in the moment and experience Oneness and infinite Love and he thinks he's getting closer to home. 20 years later he's still looking.

If Oneness is the Truth of his Being, what does it mean to be the experiencer of Oneness? If his home is Truth, of what use are the words if they don't point him home? If Truth is already what he is, and he won't effortlessly notice, what amount of effort will bring about this realization?

The spiritual search serves one purpose only; to help you realize the futility of the spiritual search. For the imaginary self, it serves the purpose of distraction, delay, obfuscation. The 'me' is buying time, turning away from the gallows steps over and over. It's a game, a pretense, a sham. The mind will run through the streets screaming "There is no me!" What foolishness.

The spiritual path is about learning to die gracefully. No more games. No more delay. No more excuses."

[Affinity]

Whoever wrote that took a long time to say... there is not point.

[Red Heart]

The spiritual path is about learning to die gracefully. No more games. No more delay. No more excuses."

That is the point m'dear. Kill yourself daily, the first time is the hardest. After that its no piece of cake.

[joe]

Affinity,
Good post, I get it.

thanks : )

joe

[Zamurito]

~

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