On being spiritual, powerful, and a Nagual

[datura]

Let me give some commentary on this some more, since Im here. Been awhile I guess. Enjoying some wine tonight, on my second cooler, heh.

Sock puppets. The thing is, everyone's had one. Granted, Ive never used a sock here, or over at restless soma or anywhere. But I think I did on delphi like a decade ago. I had one where I would just use it to lurk, no writing, just to not be seen on the log. Lots of people have had sock puppets. And years ago I did divide myself in between two nyms, one for spiritual forums, and one for debate forums. I didnt want my debate self to mix up with my spiritual self, if that makes any sense. yet I was the same old person, I just wanted my privacy in writing on spiritual stuff from the debate. if that makes any sense at all.

I dont know why D would have a sock puppet and to be honest I dont care. It could be she maybe just wanted her privacy. Because when you think about it, look how much shes been bashed. She has my empathy cause I really feel the woman put a lot of herself out on the line. You think its easy saying you have a double as it is? Ive always found her very courageous to open up and share herself as she did, and yes, open herself up for criticism too. And I believe its wrong to just sit here and bash her over and over. So she calls herself a Nagual, well, maybe she is. Maybe the label suits her makeup. Maybe the love of the CC books she identified with the label Nagual and used it. Is that so wrong?

I dont know but I think that part of conquering SI, and controlling folly, is to get past the bashing. To let the past be the past. I know some find it amusing bashing this and that person, but doesnt it get old after awhile? There's a whole wide world out there, with so much more. My path, my aim is for peace. That has been my goal, perhaps since Ive been a kid. Ive always wanted peace. I wish I could wake up to a world without conflict, and my desire is oneday when I cross over, to be able to cross the chasm, and find that world if it will accept me. One which is nothing but peace. I try to work on it here, each day. I have this belief if we keep putting it out, our own peace, then maybe it will come back to us. I know it sounds kinda dull, but I also want love in my life too. A life of love, and of peace. I get that from my kids, from my lover. I am learning every single day. I want friends, not enemies. I want joy. I want contentment.

[Gonzo]

E, I was going to respond to your comments until Kim pointed out to me that any response would be giving Della what she really wants, which is any kind of attention she can get. I deleted my post.

Regardless that Kris has posted his own comments, I initiated this thread as a general statement in regard ALL self-proclaimed Naguals, several of whom are currently active on various forums.

You know the old phrase, that if you meet the Buddha, slay him. Perhaps the meaning of that has escaped you.

[datura]

No of course not. Im very leery who is a nagual and who is not.

[Zamurito]

~

The plot thickens....

TPN: "Years ago, I said something to Orlando about the subject, and his response was essentially to say that ONLY when the majority comes to hate you can it be assumed that you are doing something right. I tend to agree with that".

eeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Damndest thing is working for recognition by rejection....

That's a bit bizarre....

I suppose, after the failed brain tumor attention getter....

Love me, Hate me, Reject me, but damnit, don't IGNORE me!

We love you TPN...for the hours of entertainment you provide us.

Have you ever thought of performing stand-up?

Kris

[Gonzo]

It would help to have a sense of humor...regardless of Naguals, we're all in this shit together. One thing don Juan and don Genaro did was have some good laughs. Folk ought to lighten up a bit.

[Zamurito]

~

It would help to have a sense of humor...regardless of Naguals, we're all in this shit together. One thing don Juan and don Genaro did was have some good laughs. Folk ought to lighten up a bit.

Yea G, but it's not quiet that easy. Or, perhaps it's easy but not simple. Or, is it the other way around??

If one is filled with ego/self importance/personal history like TPN, how much laughing would YOU do???

What's that old line? When you laugh, the world laughs with you; when you cry, you cry alone.

Oh, but being alone....conjures up cool beliefs of the solitary warrior, etc., etc. Yea, right. That leads to another lesson not-yet-learned, being available and un-available. Hiding is not the same as being un-available... But, I digress....

Here's the point, G.

Gonzo, did you ever get caught doing something you were not supposed to be doing? 'Hand in the cookie jar' sort of deal? Caught stealing something from the store? Parents bust you doing something you shouldn't?

I'm sure this has happened to all of us.

IMHO of course, this is the real reason behind TPN's 'recognition by rejection.' This method has been employed (by her) for years now...it just seems she's kicking it up a notch.

"Errr....I'm not following, Kris...."

Let me explain...

TPN was busted. Flat-ass busted as a habitual liar and a fraud. It's obvious to anyone who looks or see's that there are no Nagual attributes....not even a resemblence to anything even remotely associated to the Warriorsway, either. This was further confirmed with a face-to-face meeting. Many others have figured this out without a face-to-face meeting, but I just wanted confirmation, or, you can say I'm just slow. I mean, creating a sock puppet to talk to yourself on your own discussion board? Wowza.....

Now, let me ask you again: How did you feel when you've been busted? Well, usually not too good. What I've found is that I'm more angry at myself than anyone else for not planning and manipulating better so I wouldn't have been caught. This is the case, here. I think you disagree with me on this point that she truly 'believes' in herself, but from what I've seen this is not the case, via re-action. She was flat-ass-busted and pissed at herself for getting caught.

So G, how can you expect TPN to light-up when she's been revealed as a fraud to the entire Sorcerer/Nagualism/Toltec community?

It's an excellent stalking manuveur if she can use it, but we all know that's not going to occur. She's (by her own admission) 'done,' crossed the finish line, waiting for the Eagle, Nirvana, whatever....

<chuckles>

This line above, is another interesting point. The perspective of, "She's the Teacher, everyone else is the student." Or, "I've got all the answers, there's nothing more to learn..."

Let me make a comparison with TPN and Curtis Sensei, or even Tohei Sensei for that matter. Tohei is the founder of ShinShin Toitsu Aikido, one of only two ever awarded the hightest rank in Aikido, 10th dan. I've had the good fortune to meet him and work with him on several occasions, and as you know, I pester Curtis Sensei all the time. He's no slouch either, 8th dan, one of the highest ranking in the world.

Both are ever the student. Both seem guided by something 'out-of-this-world,' yet, are always learning from others, especially students, or, from humans in general. This has been demostrated over and over, in face-to-face meetings with both of them.

This is obviously not the case with TPN. Now, what does this demonstrate to you? Well, to me, it's a sign of someone who's locked in fear, a hopeless egomaniac. Just in the Skype chat a week or two ago....there was this 'air of superiority.' Chuckles. My dear, respect is earned, not given. This reminds me of the comments by Dan in Neither Wolf Nor Dog, about Rulers vs Leaders, but again I digress.

So once again I ask you, you're looking for a lightening up? It is just not possible. Well, perhaps possible, as anythings possible...yet again, it's not going to occur.

K

P.S. - Oh, and another favorite line used by TPN. As a Nagual or supreme being or whatever self-appointed folks want to call themselves, this line of bullshit enters: We, as Naguals, are not bound by mere words written by CC or anyone else...we just go with the flow and make it up as the Great Spirit dictates. (Something to that affect...add your own cool lines you've heard about this through-out the years.)

Nice out.

Let me remind you: No belief is true. If you even begin to think that perhaps only one belief is true, then all beliefs must then be true, correct? That's the rub. If one is to use CC as the authority on Naguals or whatever, then you must assume that what he states is true, correct? Thusly, if you start making up your own rules, where do you draw the line?

This part mentioned above is truly entertaining. "Let's take a bit from here and there...this fits my belief system and works, so I'll keep it...I can't demonstrate this so I'll throw it out, etc., etc." Do you see how this works? Once you open the flood gates, when do you close them?

TPN worked it for awhile. O's grand statements (in the beginning) were right fine. Yet, they were never taken to task, by her or anyone else (back in the day). There was no true experience there by TPN, so of course one soon comes to realize it's just words copied from another source. Not bad, all in all, until TPN started claiming them for herself. This was proven in our face-to-face meeting, when nothing said in posts could be expounded upon. It's like reading a book about swimming, then stating you know how to swim. If said is pressed, it's only a cool theory, a belief. This was the case.

Now, I've left a lot of loop-holes in this post for a reason. Speculation, if I may.

It's a discussion board, let's discuss.

P.S.S. - "Kris, why are you concerned"? It's a learning experience for me, and others. Why is it a taboo to bring out the obvious? I'm 'concerned' with Curtis and others words as well. This is one way to learn, learn about our 'self.' Not myself, but ourselves, including TPN. The doors been left open for her as well, yet it's unfortunate that she can't see the door or the opening, let alone walk through it.

Kris

[Red Heart]

Interesting what we put our attentions to...not that Im a huge fan of TPN...but, this bashing is getting old, what more is there to learn or are you just getting a jolt kicking the irrelevant around some more? Whats the point? What is to be learned? How does this further anyone's journey? Shes getting what she wants and you two are acting like bullies on the playground...sheesh grow up...

[Gonzo]

Reminds me of the classic Strother Martin line from "Cool Hand Luke", paraphrased -

...he wants it....he gets it....I don't like it any more than you do...

[Zamurito]

~

"Interesting what we put our attentions to...not that Im a huge fan of TPN...but, this bashing is getting old, what more is there to learn or are you just getting a jolt kicking the irrelevant around some more? Whats the point? What is to be learned? How does this further anyone's journey? Shes getting what she wants and you two are acting like bullies on the playground...sheesh grow up..."

Let's take a look at this....

"Interesting what we put our attentions to" Is it really?

"this bashing is getting old" This coming from someone who hangs in chat all day with Wiseass trading shots? Do you initiate the bashing? Nah. Do I always initiate the bashing? Nah. We just expound on the funny things we read.

"what more is there to learn or are you just getting a jolt kicking the irrelevant around some more" Learning is not the issue. Getting a jolt, sure.

"Whats the point?" What's the point in anything? The purpose of the ride is the ride.

"What is to be learned?" Whatever you wish.

"How does this further anyone's journey?" Ah, the journey. "Further the journey." Makes it sound like there's somewhere to go, something to find. Tsk, tsk. You do get kudos for using the term 'further.'

"Shes getting what she wants" Sure, more attention. That's fine with me.

"and you two are acting like bullies on the playground" So, you're the great protector?

"...sheesh grow up..." Why?

If you don't like it, take your own advice and don't put your attention here. As old Franklin used to say, "never you mind what I'm doing...."

K

[Red Heart]

my my my...that certainly did elicit a reaction...whats got you bugged?

[Zamurito]

my my my...that certainly did elicit a reaction...whats got you bugged?

Didn't you know? I'm a concerned man.

[Red Heart]

Hardly pumpkin

[Zamurito]

~

Hey TPN, I hear that Wendy’s abandoned you.

That’s the good news.

The bad news?

Time to get to work.

Take The First Step, finally, so to speak.

As opposed to the self pity you’re wallowing in, read and understand this:

http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/2360/master/1/?page=2

Scroll down to the entry entitled, Acceptance and Surrender.

Surrender comes when you no longer ask, “Why is this happening to me?”

Acceptance of the unacceptable is the greatest source of grace in this world.

Jed writes at great length about releasing the tiller as well. You may want to pick that up again. He’s the best medicine when one’s life partner has left you, high and dry. (In more ways than one, I'm sure).

Kris

P.S. - I'm surprised that Orlando hasn't come to the rescue. I thought he was the fix-all end-all? Isn’t it a bummer when our internal beliefs run up against external reality? Those pesky figments of our imagination always abandon us when Life and Reality come a calling, eh?

[JBoba]

Hello.

I've looked at this post briefly. I occasionally look at a few of the posts here - very rarely anything to do with this subject - and I stumbled on this a little over a week ago. I've thought about it a bit since.

First things first: I am sorry to hear that Della and Wendy are having difficulties (as this post indicates). I shouldn't write anything about any of this at all but some of my thoughts continue and it's time to write them down. I really am sorry to hear they are having trouble - for any here but John (and Michael), I have known Della the longest and deepest. Regardless of what else might be said - and will be said - I deeply enjoyed the majority of my time with Della (and Wendy) and learned a considerable amount from my engagement with her. I do not - certainly not in... "concept" - wish any harm to come to either of them and they have been together for decades. I am saddened by this news.

That being said... all of this - every moment, every drop, every iota - that Della has experienced in the last few years was brought upon by Della herself. It is self importance and cratering - the result of vicious attacks and lack of impeccability - massive self-importance. I care - very little - for any other thoughts or comments on the subject (and won't discuss it here, regardless, again for a very long time [if ever]) - the cause and the result - the action and reaction are clear.

When I first came here at least three years ago now, I was - for lack of a suitable term - delighted. I simply happened across the site - was not directed or told to do so by anyone in particular - and saw that many of whom I Love and Respect deeply were here. In some ways, it was like a prayer or even a dream come true - and that is not an exaggeration. It was almost like a garden or a gathering of some of the very - no - THE Very Finest people I had Ever met. There was laughter, there was insight, there was humor, there was open questioning and, it seemed to me, there was Love. It was interaction of the very finest.

I was glad to be here and grateful to have found it.

It was also apparent that - over all of it - there was a significant overlying thread: Della was holding court. It was almost as if there were two forums - one where Della pontificated and taught dogma and Orlando stories and then there was the real interactions. It was fascinating and mildly disturbing at the same time. It was clear that nothing could be said by anyone to another without interjection from Della on "correctness". All conversations were commented on by her and, basically, graded by her. She was particularly malicious - in that "oh, you stupid man" way - to John, slapping him down as if a punchline whenever he chose to speak and there was - of course - her little circle of debutantes that hung upon her every cleverness.

I didn't care - I was just glad to See Michael, John, Rosy, Anne, Pierre - Kim (if not in actual writing) - again. And even Della. But a very odd thing happened. I wrote a comment about Della's use of the term "double" - a simple, respectful, straightforward post - and she viciously and malignantly "responded" (reflexed). She attacked me violently and malevolently immediately. There was no way to know it at the time, but that was the Moment the Forum died.

And... I don't forgive Della for that.



One of the most beautiful and - more apt and more appropriately - rare things I (or anyone else) will ever find, came to an end. For NO other reason than self-importance. I have Seen and experienced things that are amazingly Powerful in my lifetime (and, I haven't Seen Anything yet) and Della has never understood that about others. For myself, Orlando was "simply" yet another in a series of events and experiences that I consider to be both Majestic and... not to be rude, dismissive or self-important, but...

common.

At the point when I came to the Forum, I had just finished a period in my life of Immense "toil" and Hardship. I had fought fights and "demons" (metaphorical) (kinda) that, well, simply put, well, Della just didn't rate. It was no effort at all post that training to simply say, "Shut up." and to do so in a manner that left no other room but acquiescence. No matter how long it took. I have Seen Powers and Abilities and Events that just are not subject to self-importance or the human form and I was both overjoyed (in a way) and tired and just no longer had any time for Della's...
well...

shit.

So I shut her up. And, in shutting up, in her fighting and reflexing and cratering and spasming and spitting and shitting and Bleh - she tore the shit out of the Forum and interjected every form of personal violence and information and relationships and lies

GOD, how many LIES

possible and, in doing so, she completely drained the energy - changed the energy and bored everybody until the Forum simply quit. It became non-stop fistfights and broken commitments and... well, the same kind of useless pointless (Maiv, I don't want to hear it) shit anyone can see on VH1 or at a junior high school. It was no longer Michael, no longer John, no longer Anne or questions, no longer chats between seekers and equals - it was a clever and violent woman getting her title stripped away from her by someone that simply didn't accept the lies anymore. No more bowing, no more genuflecting, no more pandering, no more... lies.

Della is a GOOD person - this stuff - ALL of it - is so far beneath her that it is a real shame that - even now - like, I don't know, Voldemort's twisted after death "baby" form, it still squeals and whines after three years in the grave. But there it is and there is nothing that I or anyone can or should do about it other than simply say, "That's a shame."

Were I to do it all over again, I don't think I would have said anything - the cost - the Forum and all these Loved Ones - was too much. I probably should have simply smiled and been silent, letting the spinner spin and letting the whateverthehellitwas be done and just sat back, observed and been immensely grateful that this was here at all. The price was simply too high.

Michael returned and now he's gone again. He answered every question (but one) respectfully and I appreciate his not answering that one as it was just the same old Della shit. And not "Della" shit but just more conflict. Conflict kills - simple as that. Look at this Forum and that is all one needs to See. It is - but for a few good companions - quite devoid of any life whatsoever. In some ways that is good - some of that "life" was not Life at all but simply "anti-life" - cleverness, conflict and vapidness that has no cohesion, no anything other than cleverness and parasitic hunger. But so much Was Good and I miss that every once in a while. This world is filled with evil, evil shit. It is a world of mediocrity and black magicians. Where respect and life are to be sneered at and where pointlessness and nothingness are high ideals to be worshipped and killed for. This is a sodden world where - eventually - everything you Love turns to dust and you Know that - with Every Actual Feeling One has - that none of it will survive and it, too, is "simply" a dream that must be awakened from in the end.

And I Loved Knowing that some here would still Be when I Awake.

And Della killed that.

And she deserves everything that has happened to her.

Della means nothing - I have Seen Events and Powers - Allies and Majesties - that would simply - not to be rude (but, I guess, kinda to be rude) - take a shit on all her "knowledge" and "facts" and, most importantly, "power" and not even notice what it had taken a shit on. That's simply Fact. And, No, Kris (and I will Not respond), Orlando, I Assure you, is quite real. Not a figment, not an imagination and not a lie. Simply himself. And I have Seen Far More Powerful and experienced (as best I was able) such First Hand. Some Here were Far More Powerful and - well, it isn't a secret what I have said in the past - a SHITLOAD More Powerful than virtually Any here even remotely suspect. And I have struggled with a few of them so... I don't know, Della just doesn't seem all that impressive. But, neither does a fight still going on three years after I won. And, it wasn't a "victory" - she didn't know what she was up against. Anymore than I did when I did it and, I assure you, I got my ass handed to me - not that that means much but, when you play with God (or whatever you thought was... whatever), it hurts. Della simply doesn't have the power to concern me much less "win" - not possible. When God has kicked your ass, witch doctors don't amount to a hill of beans.
But, I will give Della this: she fought. She didn't have to, it was stupid and it cost her far more than she thought it would and Exactly as much as I told Everyone it would but she Fought. She didn't give up and, for that - and not for being right, clever, powerful or even anything but pointless - she earns recognition.

From me.

Not that that means anything.

She was cruel, she was stupid, she was mean, she was hateful and she was destructive. She cratered violently and it may never end. But, I Loved her and I Love her and I don't wish for her and Wendy to end. It is not my business, it is not within my power to affect it one way or the other but I love them both Deeply - for More than Anyone here will Ever possibly understand - and wish them very well.

Peace,
William

[Red Heart]

Most well said JB, outstanding post.