Nothing left to say

[Gonzo]

Lately I've felt it has all been said and there's nothing more to say. My favorite quotes from "The Blue Cliff Record" remain the most relevant for me trying to understand things. There's nothing more to read, no more YouTube lectures to listen to.

"In reality there is no doctrine to be given to mankind."

"Actually, this is west of my dwelling place."

"Fetch water - carry firewood."

Perhaps our current crop of adepts were destined to become what they are, and perhaps all the prior crops as well, while the rest of us just witness their adeptness. It seems to come down to, find out who you are in your totality and accept what you find.

Time for another beer.

[Gonzo]

Addendum:

Lying abed early this morning, doing the usual pondering, I had a fantasy conversation with "another" in which I told them I didn't have any answers. It wasn't that I was out of information, rather I have no more questions. That somewhat echoes the Zen quip that "...the answer lies in the question."

The simplest shit is where the essential truths lie, and I found that stuff long ago and nothing I've encountered anywhere has disproved it nor added to it. That's really what I meant when I said there's nothing more to say. It's been said. Don Juan, imho, said the same thing in different words, but The Information hasn't changed.

[Gonzo]

I believe it's time for me to "give up". Not only have I nothing further to say, perhaps I also have nothing further to do, as in trying to have a lucid dream, or trying to do OOBE. Am I "done" ala Jed McKenna? Only if I choose to use his definitions. I'm more "done" as in deciding I'm done seeing a particular therapist, or done dealing with a particular guru, since neither will "graduate" you - it's something only the "student" can do.

There's a very real possibility McKenna, Monroe, Osho, et al, were somewhat destined to do and to become what they were. Don Juan said the real goal was to achieve the totality of self. They apparently did it - I suppose the rest of us can do likewise.

My predilection has been to be a seeker, and I've sought, and will probably continue to seek, even though I've realized it is somewhat of a distraction accomplishing very little. It does, however, provide some entertainment. In that regard, as "Jed McKenna" posted on his forum recently, It IS all entertainment.

[Kristopher]

~

Perhaps you are now ready to begin, or as brother Jed says, The First Step.

I know you think you are past all of that, as everyone does...

[Gonzo]

Steps are illusions. If you think you must take a step, or jump off a cliff, you have bought into someone else's definitions.

[Kristopher]

Steps are illusions. If you think you must take a step, or jump off a cliff, you have bought into someone else's definitions.

Yes! It's ALL illusions. Especially this:

I believe it's time for me to "give up". Not only have I nothing further to say, perhaps I also have nothing further to do, as in trying to have a lucid dream, or trying to do OOBE.

[Affinity]

Hi All.

I thought the following passage regarding Silvio Manuel might be of interest to some in light of recent discussions about unconcern, 'enlightenment', the "I" (personal volition, desire etc.) and "right and wrong", "good and evil", and the supposed virtues of 'this' compared to 'that'.

From The Eagle's Gift p88:

"[Don Juan] had learned in his life the intent of hundreds of things. But Silvio Manuel went to the source itself. He tapped it. He didn't have to learn the intent of anything. He was one with intent. The problem was that he had no more desires because intent has no desire of it's own, so he had to rely on the Nagual for volition. [* volition - the capability of conscious choice and intention] In other words, Silvio Manuel could do anything the Nagual wanted. The Nagual directed Silvio Manuel's intent. But since the Nagual had no desires either, most of the time they didn't do anything"

This description of one who had become 'one with Intent' suggests someone who had essentially ceased to be a 'person' as we understand it. That is, 'they' no longer experienced personal choice or intention and, essentially being the Nagual, they had no real desires. They were quite inhuman. Unconcern naturally flows from such a state. Don Juan - who, according to the description above and his own reports was not "one with intent" - himself said that "nothing matters" and that Seeing naturally allowed one to understand that this was the case. Consider the following passage from "A Separate Reality":

DJ - "Certain things in your life matter to you because they're important; your acts are certainly important to you, but for me, not a single thing is important any longer, neither my acts nor the acts of any of my fellow men...Once a man learns to see he finds himself alone in the world with nothing but folly...Your acts, as well as the acts of your fellow men in general, appear to be important to you because you have learned to think they are important. We learn to think about everything, and then we train our eyes to look as we think about the things we look at. We look at ourselves already thinking that we are important. And therefore we've got to feel important! But then when a man learns to see , he realizes that he can no longer think about the things he looks at, and if he cannot think about what he looks at everything becomes unimportant. Everything is equal and therefore unimportant. We need to look with our eyes to laugh. When our eyes see , everything is so equal that nothing is funny. My laughter, as well as everything I do is real but it also is controlled folly because it is useless; it changes nothing and yet I still do it....Our lot as men is to learn. I have learned to see and I tell you that nothing really matters...A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting, nor by thinking about what he will think when he has finished acting. A man of knowledge chooses a path with heart and follows it; and then he looks and rejoices and laughs; and then he sees and knows. He knows that his life will be over altogether too soon; he knows that he, as well as everybody else, is not going anywhere; he knows, because he sees , that nothing is more important than anything else. In other words, a man of knowledge has no honor, no dignity, no family, no name, no country, but only life to be lived... You think about your acts, therefore you have to believe your acts are as important as you think they are, when in reality nothing of what one does is important. Nothing! ....There's no emptiness in the life of a man of knowledge, everything is filled to the brim and everything is equal. For me there is no victory, or defeat, or emptiness. Everything is filled to the brim and everything is equal and my struggle is worth my while. In order to become a man of knowledge one must be a warrior. One must strive without giving up, without a complaint, without flinching, until one sees , only to realize then that nothing matters."

Seeing into the Nagual is not the same as the direct experience of Being One with it, and yet even merely Seeing, as Don Juan did, immediately brings with it the unshakeable knowing that nothing really matters, everything is equal, nothing is important. Concepts of right and wrong, this versus that, melt away and are seen through. There is no longer a struggle between 'good and evil", that illusion is dispelled. There are no great desires or ambitions or fears. DJ's words quite clearly indicate that for one to believe and insist that things really do matter would necessarily mean that they do not See. This knowledge can perhaps be a useful guide when considering the veracity of the claims of those who say they See, or assert their spiritual advancement or spiritual authority.

Anyone who is familiar with the concept common to many 'paths' and 'religions' of non-dualistic 'enlightenment' (in which the 'person' is seen to be nonexistent and therefore without personal volition or concern) would, I believe, immediately recognize as familiar the description of the state that Silvio was said to be in and that Don Juan could at least perceive through Seeing, if not fully embody.

Malcal

[Gonzo]

Hi All.

I thought the following passage regarding Silvio Manuel might be of interest to some in light of recent discussions about unconcern, 'enlightenment', the "I" (personal volition, desire etc.) and "right and wrong", "good and evil", and the supposed virtues of 'this' compared to 'that'.

From The Eagle's Gift p88:

"[Don Juan] had learned in his life the intent of hundreds of things. But Silvio Manuel went to the source itself. He tapped it. He didn't have to learn the intent of anything. He was one with intent. The problem was that he had no more desires because intent has no desire of it's own, so he had to rely on the Nagual for volition. [* volition - the capability of conscious choice and intention] In other words, Silvio Manuel could do anything the Nagual wanted. The Nagual directed Silvio Manuel's intent. But since the Nagual had no desires either, most of the time they didn't do anything"

This description of one who had become 'one with Intent' suggests someone who had essentially ceased to be a 'person' as we understand it. That is, 'they' no longer experienced personal choice or intention and, essentially being the Nagual, they had no real desires. They were quite inhuman. Unconcern naturally flows from such a state. Don Juan - who, according to the description above and his own reports was not "one with intent" - himself said that "nothing matters" and that Seeing naturally allowed one to understand that this was the case. Consider the following passage from "A Separate Reality":

DJ - "Certain things in your life matter to you because they're important; your acts are certainly important to you, but for me, not a single thing is important any longer, neither my acts nor the acts of any of my fellow men...Once a man learns to see he finds himself alone in the world with nothing but folly...Your acts, as well as the acts of your fellow men in general, appear to be important to you because you have learned to think they are important. We learn to think about everything, and then we train our eyes to look as we think about the things we look at. We look at ourselves already thinking that we are important. And therefore we've got to feel important! But then when a man learns to see , he realizes that he can no longer think about the things he looks at, and if he cannot think about what he looks at everything becomes unimportant. Everything is equal and therefore unimportant. We need to look with our eyes to laugh. When our eyes see , everything is so equal that nothing is funny. My laughter, as well as everything I do is real but it also is controlled folly because it is useless; it changes nothing and yet I still do it....Our lot as men is to learn. I have learned to see and I tell you that nothing really matters...A man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting, nor by thinking about what he will think when he has finished acting. A man of knowledge chooses a path with heart and follows it; and then he looks and rejoices and laughs; and then he sees and knows. He knows that his life will be over altogether too soon; he knows that he, as well as everybody else, is not going anywhere; he knows, because he sees , that nothing is more important than anything else. In other words, a man of knowledge has no honor, no dignity, no family, no name, no country, but only life to be lived... You think about your acts, therefore you have to believe your acts are as important as you think they are, when in reality nothing of what one does is important. Nothing! ....There's no emptiness in the life of a man of knowledge, everything is filled to the brim and everything is equal. For me there is no victory, or defeat, or emptiness. Everything is filled to the brim and everything is equal and my struggle is worth my while. In order to become a man of knowledge one must be a warrior. One must strive without giving up, without a complaint, without flinching, until one sees , only to realize then that nothing matters."

Seeing into the Nagual is not the same as the direct experience of Being One with it, and yet even merely Seeing, as Don Juan did, immediately brings with it the unshakeable knowing that nothing really matters, everything is equal, nothing is important. Concepts of right and wrong, this versus that, melt away and are seen through. There is no longer a struggle between 'good and evil", that illusion is dispelled. There are no great desires or ambitions or fears. DJ's words quite clearly indicate that for one to believe and insist that things really do matter would necessarily mean that they do not See. This knowledge can perhaps be a useful guide when considering the veracity of the claims of those who say they See, or assert their spiritual advancement or spiritual authority.

Anyone who is familiar with the concept common to many 'paths' and 'religions' of non-dualistic 'enlightenment' (in which the 'person' is seen to be nonexistent and therefore without personal volition or concern) would, I believe, immediately recognize as familiar the description of the state that Silvio was said to be in and that Don Juan could at least perceive through Seeing, if not fully embody.

Malcal

Would that reading this daily would cause it to be so. Perhaps one of Malc's greatest contributions, along with introducing us to Jed McKenna's books. Thanks, Aff.

[seesaw]

'Not caring' or maintaining feelings of 'ambivalence' are not the same as 'indifference' that comes from seeing. It is a poor approximation much like acting tough and having certain gestures because that's how our hero did it on film. Its a pretty wank approximation that fools others often, even fooling ourselves sometimes.

I know that until I can actually do the things spoken about in the books I can merely speculate about the characters written about.

What are you doing daily to hunt enough power to dream? what habits have you changed? what histories have you erased? are you really looking at death close up? what not doings have you exercised? What have you actually done today to hunt these things?
The path to experiencing the things DJ spoke about, the kind of life he lived, is formulaic. Its written about very precisely. Do this, get this.

Actually doing any of that shit is just as meaningless as sitting there wining about giving up. The self discipline that you are so scared of applying is just as empty as drinking beer you remain attached to. Its a lazy and conceited approach to say that everything is equal and use this to justify not doing what is prescribed. Yes of course not changing, not trying, proves that everything is equally unimportant from the comfort of the armchair, it misses the view from the other side though. Guessing that after actually getting to the other side things everything will still all be unimportant is..... i'm struggling to find insulting adjectives here that sufficiently convey my fear and loathing of this attitude Gonzo.

Somewhere in the books it says the the real ability of a student can be measured by the facility to do stuff for the hell of it. Its the ease of which they can actually be persuaded to do things for no apparent reason that indicates their potential success. Yesterday you repeatedly asked 'whats the reason', 'whats the point of getting to the sorcerers explanation?' Right now you dont have a reason or a point to try. I dont know of any logical thought based argument that would give you one. You've missed the boat so far and its fast approaching midnight, why change now?

I don't expect that this response will change you. I am writing this because i am angry and frightened. I am writing this to myself.
The thing that terrifies me about the attitude you embody here is that it is so close to my own. Its almost too much to read it. Its embarrassing, almost unbearable, to see this in print before my own eyes. It scares the shit out of me.
Maybe i'm lucky though. You are fast approaching the end of your life and have given up, at least i have an element of fear to propel me back to experience things over the edge. I see now that the battle for impeccability is a deeply personal one. I suppose that getting to experience the sorcerers explanation has given me the impetus to even try and be impeccable, despite all my own shit that prevents me from ever hoping for success.

In fact i'm going to take you as a model of what i might become if i don't actually walk my talk, shallow and glum, sitting in a chair with another beer, talking about oneness and wisdom.

Keep delivering those jolts to me.

[turin otzaki]

wow, if I found someone that delivered such jolts to me, Id be thanking them heartily not engaging in peeved poking...

[Gonzo]

@SS -

I think it's reasonable for each of us to take from Castaneda's works that which is relevant to each of us. My take on don Juan's teachings is personal to me, and as I said yesterday, I have my own opinions about what don Juan was trying to communicate and what he was guiding others towards. There are many interpretations possible, from the purely literal to the casual (that which I resonate with, or which appeals to me and perhaps requires the least amount of effort).

My goals are not your goals. That does not mean either is superior, or that either may be used as a barometer for the other. The best that can be said is we differ.

[redspiderlily]

Somewhere in the books it says the the real ability of a student can be measured by the facility to do stuff for the hell of it. Its the ease of which they can actually be persuaded to do things for no apparent reason that indicates their potential success. Yesterday you repeatedly asked 'whats the reason', 'whats the point of getting to the sorcerers explanation?' Right now you dont have a reason or a point to try. I dont know of any logical thought based argument that would give you one. You've missed the boat so far and its fast approaching midnight, why change now?

I don't expect that this response will change you. I am writing this because i am angry and frightened. I am writing this to myself.
The thing that terrifies me about the attitude you embody here is that it is so close to my own. Its almost too much to read it. Its embarrassing, almost unbearable, to see this in print before my own eyes. It scares the shit out of me.
Maybe i'm lucky though. You are fast approaching the end of your life and have given up, at least i have an element of fear to propel me back to experience things over the edge. I see now that the battle for impeccability is a deeply personal one. I suppose that getting to experience the sorcerers explanation has given me the impetus to even try and be impeccable, despite all my own shit that prevents me from ever hoping for success.

In fact i'm going to take you as a model of what i might become if i don't actually walk my talk, shallow and glum, sitting in a chair with another beer, talking about oneness and wisdom.

Keep delivering those jolts to me.

Nodding. "what i might become if i don't actually walk my talk, shallow and glum, sitting in a chair with another beer, talking about oneness and wisdom." Not long ago, I came to a similar realization, having bumped into a lady I barely know in the parking lot of the cold beer and wine store. I had spoken to her earlier that day and she told me she was going to an AA meeting, yet there she was, at the Beer store. The story and situation was sad, and disgusting to me and yet somehow it probed at something deep inside.

She jolted me, somehow she looked like a me that I could easily become if I didn't change something. I think I stared at her from across the parking lot for quite some time before I went into the store and again after I came out with my bottle. The realization was powerful, frightening, but also liberating at the same time. I woke up the next morning, the bottle was empty, but that lady's face was still in my mind. I quit drinking that very day.

How often do we get these types of gifts? I will be forever grateful for jolts such as these and for the forbearance needed to Act when the time is right.

Thanks for the post seesaw

(Funny tidbit, my realization and experience came two days before you posted this)